These guys are the ones with the power to motivate terrorists and middle-east governments in order to kill countless innocent people in the name of Islam. That is why Spencer’s understanding of Islam is important…because it is OBL and Ahmadinajad’s understanding.

If this fact is ignored by moderate muslims who quietly, subconsciously reject such orthodoxy, then the violence of Mohammad and the archaine verses of the Koran will just sit there until a terrorist-fascist personality reads them, and becomes inspired by them, with no reproach. It is also infinitely worse when all those who are respected throughout the middle-east as “scholars” or “clerics” or whatever, actually encourage such interpretation.

Nothing will ever change until eccumenincal leadership in the Muslim world addresses the archaine tradition within Islamic scripture, history and of Mohammad himself, The way the Jews have done with Tulmudic scholarship, and the Catholic church did with the counter-reformation.

I’m sorry, but Aziz, Eteraz and Esmay it doesn’t seem to me that you have the credibility to convince Muslims that you are the supreme authority on defining Islamic dogma, whereas all those robed men are not. Its easy to bash Spencer for pointing this out because you are the Grand Muftis of Blogspot, rather than Cairo.

I don’t claim to know arabic. I certainly don’t know the Quran well enough to make any claims on what it says, although I have read an english translation of it.

I do know enough about other languages to assert that it is possible for one person to translate a term as ‘complete’ and another to tranlate it as ‘perfect’ and for them both to be correct.

If we want to talk about facile, juvenile interpretations of anothers words to make that person look bad, I expect that many of us are guilty of that sin. Certainly Dean and Matoko haven’t been above it either in the past or in this current posting.

From the larger perspective, I don’t think it is arguable that Muslims revere Mohammad and try to emulate him. I also don’t think it arguable that some Muslims, including some that are respected relious authorities, use Mohammad and the Koran to justify violence that most of us, including a lot of Muslims, find absolutely unjustifiable.

Certainly it is also obvious that the Koran can be used to justify violent, repugnant acts. The Bible and the Torah can as well, as can the Communist Manifesto. That is blindingly obvious. The difference though is how often this is being done. Islam seems to be being used in this fashion currently with distressing frequency. That makes it an issue very different from the others.

I have still never understood the point to Dean’s ‘Islamophobic’ arguements (let alone Matoko’s bizarre ramblings.) Is it wrong to make any criticisms of Islam? Is it wrong to criticize any Muslims? What is the behavior he condemns that is so horrible, and why is it so horrible?

I earnestly want to understand the nature of this conflict, it all its dimensions. It is clearly complex and contains religous as well as non-religious ideas. I think trying to understand why and how some Muslims use their religion as justification is quite useful. Dean seems to assert though that we should just take the word of Muslims who are not violent that their religion doesn’t condone such things, regardless of how often it is used to do just that, and how many Muslims see to agree.

I notice that in a post below I asked two questions which no one bothered to answer: does anyone believe that the experience of Muslim-Anglo relations in the UK &the US is different? (We know its far different in places like France and other parts of Europe.) It is true that Muslims in the US seem to be far more assimilated than they are in the UK.

Do you think you lot might not be possible if you were near or lost someone in an Islamist attack in your city or town you might be less charitable?

Got any personal friends who are Muslims who are willing to stand up and call you friend after reading what you have to say, Jimmy?

Can you name them? Will any of them stand up publicly and call you friend?

Come on Jimmy. I know you can.

jimmi, irrelevent.

So start a new thread about how Muslims like the Grand Ayatolla Ali Hossaini Khamenei interpret the meaning of al-insan al-kamil, or uswa hasana. I’m curious to know your views on the relevance of their opinions.

Or do you think Robert Spencer has more authority regarding Islamic theology than the Grand-Muftis of every major city in the Muslim world? Once you’ve rebuked Spencer’s opinion the issue is settled? I had no idea blogs were such a major factor in establishing theology within Muslim tradition.

Now go out and convince the Ayatollas, Muftis, Madhabs, Sharia-advocating clerics, CAIR officials, terrorists, and the hundreds of millions of other muslims worldwide who completely disagree with your assessment.

There are a number of Muslims in the world who agree with Spencer’s interpretation of Islam. Those that use this interpretation to further the cause of the ideology we are at war with are our enemies and must be unquestionably defeated.

For someone to say that this interpretation of Islam is the only way forward says more about the one speaking than it does about Islam. It says that you are prey to reductionist theories, which, in a way, is understandable because the world is such a complex and scary place. It probably feels comforting to have a solution that seems to make so much sense, not to mention, how much smarter you must feel than all of those that just can’t grasp the inherent logic of your position.

This just won’t do. We have been drawn into a battle between opposing interpretations of Islam. Even if you think the “moderate” side is a small number, what sense does it make to voluntarily increase the size of your enemy? Not much unless you are at core a defeatist who is more interested in proving yourself right than in actually winning the war.

You do a great job of recapitulating lunatic jihadist logic and rhetoric. Hooray for you.

By the way, I just got another email from Roob. Haven’t had a chance to digest it yet. Offhand though I guess it’ll be another thing that helps him sell books and book paid speaking engagements, all of which help him keep up his income. Which, so far as I can tell, is 100% devoted to “warning” the poor stupid Westerners about “what Islam is really all about.”

The fact that he can’t name any Muslims of significance who know him personally, will stand up and call him friend, and will say they find him worthy of discussing things with, will never cross his febrile fans’ minds. Or worse, they’ll just say, “oh, there’s nothing worth discussing here, Roob is right about it all! He wins!”

If he had even one practicing Muslim who was willing to publicly befriend him he’d maybe be worth a shit. Otherwise he’s just another charlatan on the right-wing chitlin circuit throwing out raw meat to the faithful to help pay his income.

Oh, and if I’ve got you wrong, Roob? Go ahead and send me a private email–an email I pledge never to publicly reprint–telling me why you think I’ve got you totally wrong and why you really do seek dialogue with Muslims and not merely “debate.” Explain to me why you think you have items worthy of discussion and why you really want to dialogue with faithful Muslims about the things you find disturbing in their faith, to seek greater understanding.

The Pope seeks no more and no less. Do you? Or do you merely seek facile “debate?”

Here’s what I predict for you, Roob: you will die alone, unmourned and unloved. And in your last moments on Earth, if you have any conscience at all, you will wonder if your whole purpose on Earth wasn’t just to serve as a warning for others about the dangers of hatemongering and rampant stupidity.

You think I’ve got you wrong? Send me a private email that neither of us will ever reprint under any circumstances. Tell me I how got you wrong, and why I got you wrong.

Otherwise, it’s all between you and your Saviour.

Now go out and convince the Ayatollas, Muftis, Madhabs, Sharia-advocating clerics, CAIR officials, terrorists, and the hundreds of millions of other muslims worldwide who completely disagree with your assessment.

P.S. What is the translation of uswa hasana? Shouldn’t a good muslim model their behavior towards Mohammad if he is so hasana?