Is there a correlation between the hatred of Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, non-believers, et all, routinely spewed from the mouths of imams and teachers in places of worship and religious schools all across the moslem world — accompanied by vicious cartoons in newspapers read every day by the ‘umma of that world, and the frequent physical attacks and outright murders of non-Moslems that occur with great frequency all across that world?
Nobody condones some jerk tossing a brick through any window, which includes the one in the mosque in Virginia that you cited.
But any American has the right to think what he or she chooses. And if Dave Gaubatz chooses to spend his time searching for anti-american activity in the moslem community in this country, that’s his right as well.
Besides which, Gaubatz is a trained military intelligence officer who possibly uses Arabic with greater fluency than you do as a person born and raised in Pakistan.
Anyway, don’t overwhelm yourself with self-pity or hysteria over this, or confuse free speech with physical assault. Unless the same standards hold true for the world you hopefully left behind when you settled in America.
At this point I’ve grown skeptical of this sort of thing, and no, I’m not happy that I’ve become jaded.
For instance, another putative hate crime in Virginia turned out to not be one. I’m at the point where until I know more I’m only going to issue a blanket condemnation of those who would damage a religious site until there’s more evidence.
Nothing personal, Ali, but I’ve gotten sucked in too many times.
Evidence that “hatred of Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, non-believers, et all, routinely spewed from the mouths of imams and teachers in places of worship and religious schools all across the moslem world” is the norm? None.
And since Dave Gaubatz is transparently a liar, let me happily condemn him as an unAmerican piece of garbage with no respect for the values that make this country great.
I don’t know that Dave Graubatz is “transparently a liar”, but you certainly are entitled to your opinion. He served this country as a uniformed intelligence officer, and he is as entitled to be heard as you are.
As for the almost universal bigotry, hatred and violence against non-Moslems practiced in most of the islamic world, it is one of the most thoroughly documented phenomena in the history of human events.
Nobody begrudges you your hopes of a rapprochment between Islam and the other religious-defined cultures of the world. But you must understand that a significant and perhaps increasing number of Americans view the growth of an islamic community or communities in his country as an ultimate threat to their own freedom to worship as they choose, and to no small degree, as a danger to the security of the United States.
Since religion in general represents nothing to me except a lot of illogically-conceived dreams and hopes of an immortality that I am certain does not and cannot exist, I have nothing against the Moslems of this country. Except that I grow irritable hearing continually how badly there rights are being threatened.
But if you expect most Americans to welcome people of a culture as strange and different as their’s into the mainstream of american life — barring the passage of another century or so of familiarity — than I also think you are badly fooling yourself.
Arnold, have you ever been to the Muslim world? Because over here there are an awful lot of people who believe that the hatred, aggression, bigotry and will-to-power of the US is one of the most thoroughly documented phenomena in the modern world. And the reason why is very simple: they’ve never gotten on a plane and gone there. Instead, they watch the ‘news’, and assume they’ve got the whole story.
It seems like a lot of Americans have a very similar problem.
You do yourself a disservice with such hysterical generalizations.
Willow, my wife and I lived and studied in Jerusalem during 1973-1974 under graduate study fellowships, where we experienced the October 1973 war, extensively got saw everything from the Golan Heights to Ras Muhamad. We spent as much time with Arabs as we did with Jews.
My experiences confirmed and greatly expanded my Zionism, along with a sense of amusement frequently tinged with disgust at both of their religions and cultural practices.
I found the Jews to be people who thought they knew the answers to any question even before the question was asked. They certainly were more arrogant than most of the american Jews I have had in my life. But they tended to be upright, honest and said exactly what was on their minds. They could all whip my ass at chess, and they were some of the brightest people I had ever met. I got the notion that the only real Jews in the world today were the ones establishing israeli villages and cities throughout the Golan, Judea and Samaria.
The Arabs were much more pleasant; were hospitable to a degree I have never experienced in the West, but gave me the sense that they lied in regard to just about anything and everything where they thought an honest response would bring unpleasantries. One of them told me one day — I think in a truthful and candid moment — that what they really had against the Jews in their internatonal neighborhood was that the jewish women had a sense of equality whose example threatened arab familial and societal structures.
Aside from that, my wife, who was born and raised in Croatia, has had moslem relatives from Bosna (a largely moslem part of former Jugoslavia) through a marriage of one of her aunts. I don’t know how moslem the Egyptians whom you have lived among would consider the Bosniaci, who certainly do not honor the Prophet’s prohibitions against alcohol. But what can you expect from Slavs, islamic or otherwise?
I would agree with the Moslems whom you have described above, that the arrogance, bigotry and will-to-power of this country can hardly be imagined by us Americans. Because we cannot step outside our own skins. But I will not stoop to argue against that arrogance. My country, may she always be right. But right or cr wrong, my country nevertheless.
So… you’ve got one data point? How about the correlation between Imam’s preaching about the Great Satan and Muslims flying airplanes into American skyscrapers?
I’ve got *two* data points for that correlation, so it must be even more true.
Three years later, it began construction of the $5 million mosque, with financial help from the Islamic Affairs Department of the Saudi Embassy in Washington. The mosque’s current revenue comes entirely from the congregation..
Also according to the Washington Post:
Some Dar founders also were among the immigrant activists who started the Muslim American Society in 1992. Some had belonged to the Muslim Brotherhood in their native lands, where they often worked clandestinely against governments that had banned their movement.
The Muslim Brotherhood basically runs of the billion-dollar terrorist economy, managing many offshore accounts that contribute to groups like al Qaeda. The Muslim American Society is their branch in America.
Also according to the Washington Post.
Shortly after the 2001 attacks, federal investigators learned that two of the hijackers, Hani Hanjour and Nawaf Al Hazmi, worshiped at Dar for several weeks in spring 2001. The two men apparently showed up because Hazmi had developed a close relationship with Aulaqi in San Diego, according to the report of the 9/11 commission.
As a Wahhabi and Islamist-funded organization, this mosque has obvious political leanings and financial ties to the Islamist movement.
The Islamist movement is a political organization which is basically a form of Muslim supremacism.
While the rock-throwing incident is abhorrent, we are discussing a fight between two extremist political entities here, White Supremacists vs Muslim Supremacists.
The Muslim supremacists are trying to hide behind the skirts of religion, but this is obviously a political fight and should be treated that way.
Oops – I should have italicized the first quote above, There are no “deep ties†to Saudi Arabia which was from Tariq Nelson’s blog, referring to the Dar Al Hijrah mosque
According to the Washington Post, the statement There are no “deep ties†to Saudi Arabia is not exactly true.
I submit that the correlation between the complete and open and loud repudiation of Islamism by the vast majority of US Muslims and the complete marginalization of anti-Muslim bigotry will be close to 100%. (And I ain’t talkin’ about just the repudiation of terrorism, here.)
I hate the fact that there are people who throw bricks through windows in order to intimidate, but I also hate the fact that political organizations mask their subversive and intolerant intentions behind the auspices of a politically correct religion.
Three years later, it began construction of the $5 million mosque, with financial help from the Islamic Affairs Department of the Saudi Embassy in Washington.
I’d call the financial help that it took to build a $5 million mosque with 3,000 members a ‘tie’.
Given that the Muslim American Society/Muslim Brotherhood, is also financed by Saudi money, it’s a fairly deep tie.
But thanks for inspiring me to provide more information about Dar Al Hijrah, which has more Islamist/terrorist ties. For instance, the madrassa that’s run by the mosque, the Islamic Academy in Washington uses textbooks imported from Pakistan and Saudi Arabia that are laced with anti-Christian and anti-Semitic dogma
According to the New York Times, Ahmed Omar Abu Ali, “the man indicted on charges of working with al Qaeda to plot the assassination of the President of the US, taught Islamic studies to children at the Dar Al Hijrah Islamic Center while still in high school. According to the Washington Post, the Center has been a gathering place for Islamist and jihadi activity in the US.”
Oh, and the town of Falls Church, where the mosque is located, has been linked to terrorism many times, including the al Qaeda-linked organization, the World Association of Muslim Youthand and our friends in Hamas!
Like Hamas, the Dar Al Hijrah mosque and the town of Falls Church have many deep ties to Saudi Arabia
Arnold: Why should I give a damn if this lying sack of garbage once served as a military intelligence officer? There are likely tens of thousands of people running around in the United States today who once served as military intelligence officers. Although, given that he’s a clear liar, I’m not sure I should even believe he has that meaningless status.
A baldfaced liar who spits on the first amendment is a baldfaced liar who spits on the first amendment. Dave Gaubatz is a liar who spits on the first amendment. Just read the article Ali linked: he’s a liar.
Mary: I’m really tired of any tie whatsoever to any group that may at one time have been in some way associated with terrorist-supporting groups being forever and ever branded with a scarlet letter. It is not uncommon for new mosques to get some support from some funding source somewhere in Saudi Arabia. And it’s not uncommon for someone to have once been associated with the very large Muslim Brotherhood movement but not to be anymore.
You know, I know some Italians. Some of them have “known ties” to mafia operations, inasmuch as they know someone or are related to someone who once was friends with someone who was reputed to be in the mob.
The article you link clearly demonstrates that the only “deep tie” to Saudi Arabia at that mosque is that they may have gotten some seed money to get it started. Whoopie.
Paranoia strikes deep… into your life it will creep….
You know, I know some Italians. Some of them have “known ties” to mafia operations, inasmuch as they know someone or are related to someone who once was friends with someone who was reputed to be in the mob.
LOL. You’re not just describing Italians, you’re describing the populations of Northern New Jersey, Long Island and Brooklyn.
Of course, our government has deep (and similar) Saudi ties, which is why we’re losing the war against terrorism.
But back to Falls Church, Virginia and the Dar Al Hijrah – we are talking about Islamists here, and Islamism is a politically oriented Muslim supremacist movement. This is a political conflict between two extremist groups.
{ 17 comments }
Disgraceful.
Is there a correlation between the hatred of Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, non-believers, et all, routinely spewed from the mouths of imams and teachers in places of worship and religious schools all across the moslem world — accompanied by vicious cartoons in newspapers read every day by the ‘umma of that world, and the frequent physical attacks and outright murders of non-Moslems that occur with great frequency all across that world?
Nobody condones some jerk tossing a brick through any window, which includes the one in the mosque in Virginia that you cited.
But any American has the right to think what he or she chooses. And if Dave Gaubatz chooses to spend his time searching for anti-american activity in the moslem community in this country, that’s his right as well.
Besides which, Gaubatz is a trained military intelligence officer who possibly uses Arabic with greater fluency than you do as a person born and raised in Pakistan.
Anyway, don’t overwhelm yourself with self-pity or hysteria over this, or confuse free speech with physical assault. Unless the same standards hold true for the world you hopefully left behind when you settled in America.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
At this point I’ve grown skeptical of this sort of thing, and no, I’m not happy that I’ve become jaded.
For instance, another putative hate crime in Virginia turned out to not be one. I’m at the point where until I know more I’m only going to issue a blanket condemnation of those who would damage a religious site until there’s more evidence.
Nothing personal, Ali, but I’ve gotten sucked in too many times.
Evidence that “hatred of Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, non-believers, et all, routinely spewed from the mouths of imams and teachers in places of worship and religious schools all across the moslem world” is the norm? None.
And since Dave Gaubatz is transparently a liar, let me happily condemn him as an unAmerican piece of garbage with no respect for the values that make this country great.
I don’t know that Dave Graubatz is “transparently a liar”, but you certainly are entitled to your opinion. He served this country as a uniformed intelligence officer, and he is as entitled to be heard as you are.
As for the almost universal bigotry, hatred and violence against non-Moslems practiced in most of the islamic world, it is one of the most thoroughly documented phenomena in the history of human events.
Nobody begrudges you your hopes of a rapprochment between Islam and the other religious-defined cultures of the world. But you must understand that a significant and perhaps increasing number of Americans view the growth of an islamic community or communities in his country as an ultimate threat to their own freedom to worship as they choose, and to no small degree, as a danger to the security of the United States.
Since religion in general represents nothing to me except a lot of illogically-conceived dreams and hopes of an immortality that I am certain does not and cannot exist, I have nothing against the Moslems of this country. Except that I grow irritable hearing continually how badly there rights are being threatened.
But if you expect most Americans to welcome people of a culture as strange and different as their’s into the mainstream of american life — barring the passage of another century or so of familiarity — than I also think you are badly fooling yourself.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
Arnold, have you ever been to the Muslim world? Because over here there are an awful lot of people who believe that the hatred, aggression, bigotry and will-to-power of the US is one of the most thoroughly documented phenomena in the modern world. And the reason why is very simple: they’ve never gotten on a plane and gone there. Instead, they watch the ‘news’, and assume they’ve got the whole story.
It seems like a lot of Americans have a very similar problem.
You do yourself a disservice with such hysterical generalizations.
Willow, my wife and I lived and studied in Jerusalem during 1973-1974 under graduate study fellowships, where we experienced the October 1973 war, extensively got saw everything from the Golan Heights to Ras Muhamad. We spent as much time with Arabs as we did with Jews.
My experiences confirmed and greatly expanded my Zionism, along with a sense of amusement frequently tinged with disgust at both of their religions and cultural practices.
I found the Jews to be people who thought they knew the answers to any question even before the question was asked. They certainly were more arrogant than most of the american Jews I have had in my life. But they tended to be upright, honest and said exactly what was on their minds. They could all whip my ass at chess, and they were some of the brightest people I had ever met. I got the notion that the only real Jews in the world today were the ones establishing israeli villages and cities throughout the Golan, Judea and Samaria.
The Arabs were much more pleasant; were hospitable to a degree I have never experienced in the West, but gave me the sense that they lied in regard to just about anything and everything where they thought an honest response would bring unpleasantries. One of them told me one day — I think in a truthful and candid moment — that what they really had against the Jews in their internatonal neighborhood was that the jewish women had a sense of equality whose example threatened arab familial and societal structures.
Aside from that, my wife, who was born and raised in Croatia, has had moslem relatives from Bosna (a largely moslem part of former Jugoslavia) through a marriage of one of her aunts. I don’t know how moslem the Egyptians whom you have lived among would consider the Bosniaci, who certainly do not honor the Prophet’s prohibitions against alcohol. But what can you expect from Slavs, islamic or otherwise?
I would agree with the Moslems whom you have described above, that the arrogance, bigotry and will-to-power of this country can hardly be imagined by us Americans. Because we cannot step outside our own skins. But I will not stoop to argue against that arrogance. My country, may she always be right. But right or cr wrong, my country nevertheless.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
So… you’ve got one data point? How about the correlation between Imam’s preaching about the Great Satan and Muslims flying airplanes into American skyscrapers?
I’ve got *two* data points for that correlation, so it must be even more true.
There are no “deep ties†to Saudi Arabia.
According to this article in the Washington Post, that not exactly true:
Three years later, it began construction of the $5 million mosque, with financial help from the Islamic Affairs Department of the Saudi Embassy in Washington. The mosque’s current revenue comes entirely from the congregation..
Also according to the Washington Post:
Some Dar founders also were among the immigrant activists who started the Muslim American Society in 1992. Some had belonged to the Muslim Brotherhood in their native lands, where they often worked clandestinely against governments that had banned their movement.
The Muslim Brotherhood basically runs of the billion-dollar terrorist economy, managing many offshore accounts that contribute to groups like al Qaeda. The Muslim American Society is their branch in America.
Also according to the Washington Post.
Shortly after the 2001 attacks, federal investigators learned that two of the hijackers, Hani Hanjour and Nawaf Al Hazmi, worshiped at Dar for several weeks in spring 2001. The two men apparently showed up because Hazmi had developed a close relationship with Aulaqi in San Diego, according to the report of the 9/11 commission.
As a Wahhabi and Islamist-funded organization, this mosque has obvious political leanings and financial ties to the Islamist movement.
The Islamist movement is a political organization which is basically a form of Muslim supremacism.
While the rock-throwing incident is abhorrent, we are discussing a fight between two extremist political entities here, White Supremacists vs Muslim Supremacists.
The Muslim supremacists are trying to hide behind the skirts of religion, but this is obviously a political fight and should be treated that way.
Oops – I should have italicized the first quote above, There are no “deep ties†to Saudi Arabia which was from Tariq Nelson’s blog, referring to the Dar Al Hijrah mosque
According to the Washington Post, the statement There are no “deep ties†to Saudi Arabia is not exactly true.
I submit that the correlation between the complete and open and loud repudiation of Islamism by the vast majority of US Muslims and the complete marginalization of anti-Muslim bigotry will be close to 100%. (And I ain’t talkin’ about just the repudiation of terrorism, here.)
I hate the fact that there are people who throw bricks through windows in order to intimidate, but I also hate the fact that political organizations mask their subversive and intolerant intentions behind the auspices of a politically correct religion.
To sum up: bigotry is bad; Islamism is worse.
Thanks, Mary, for pointing out the article, which reports that
which confirms that
Three years later, it began construction of the $5 million mosque, with financial help from the Islamic Affairs Department of the Saudi Embassy in Washington.
I’d call the financial help that it took to build a $5 million mosque with 3,000 members a ‘tie’.
Given that the Muslim American Society/Muslim Brotherhood, is also financed by Saudi money, it’s a fairly deep tie.
But thanks for inspiring me to provide more information about Dar Al Hijrah, which has more Islamist/terrorist ties. For instance, the madrassa that’s run by the mosque, the Islamic Academy in Washington uses textbooks imported from Pakistan and Saudi Arabia that are laced with anti-Christian and anti-Semitic dogma
According to the New York Times, Ahmed Omar Abu Ali, “the man indicted on charges of working with al Qaeda to plot the assassination of the President of the US, taught Islamic studies to children at the Dar Al Hijrah Islamic Center while still in high school. According to the Washington Post, the Center has been a gathering place for Islamist and jihadi activity in the US.”
Oh, and the town of Falls Church, where the mosque is located, has been linked to terrorism many times, including the al Qaeda-linked organization, the World Association of Muslim Youthand and our friends in Hamas!
Like Hamas, the Dar Al Hijrah mosque and the town of Falls Church have many deep ties to Saudi Arabia
Arnold: Why should I give a damn if this lying sack of garbage once served as a military intelligence officer? There are likely tens of thousands of people running around in the United States today who once served as military intelligence officers. Although, given that he’s a clear liar, I’m not sure I should even believe he has that meaningless status.
A baldfaced liar who spits on the first amendment is a baldfaced liar who spits on the first amendment. Dave Gaubatz is a liar who spits on the first amendment. Just read the article Ali linked: he’s a liar.
Mary: I’m really tired of any tie whatsoever to any group that may at one time have been in some way associated with terrorist-supporting groups being forever and ever branded with a scarlet letter. It is not uncommon for new mosques to get some support from some funding source somewhere in Saudi Arabia. And it’s not uncommon for someone to have once been associated with the very large Muslim Brotherhood movement but not to be anymore.
You know, I know some Italians. Some of them have “known ties” to mafia operations, inasmuch as they know someone or are related to someone who once was friends with someone who was reputed to be in the mob.
The article you link clearly demonstrates that the only “deep tie” to Saudi Arabia at that mosque is that they may have gotten some seed money to get it started. Whoopie.
Paranoia strikes deep… into your life it will creep….
You know, I know some Italians. Some of them have “known ties” to mafia operations, inasmuch as they know someone or are related to someone who once was friends with someone who was reputed to be in the mob.
LOL. You’re not just describing Italians, you’re describing the populations of Northern New Jersey, Long Island and Brooklyn.
Of course, our government has deep (and similar) Saudi ties, which is why we’re losing the war against terrorism.
But back to Falls Church, Virginia and the Dar Al Hijrah – we are talking about Islamists here, and Islamism is a politically oriented Muslim supremacist movement. This is a political conflict between two extremist groups.
Evidence? The WaPo article doesn’t show me much of any.
Dean – Evidence of what?
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