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	<title>Comments on: Bush at Yad Vashem</title>
	<atom:link href="http://deanesmay.com/2008/01/11/bush-at-yad-vashem/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://deanesmay.com/2008/01/11/bush-at-yad-vashem/</link>
	<description>Defending the liberal tradition in history, science, and philosophy.</description>
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		<title>By: DanielH</title>
		<link>http://deanesmay.com/2008/01/11/bush-at-yad-vashem/#comment-146190</link>
		<dc:creator>DanielH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jan 2008 12:59:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deanesma.nexcess.net/2008/01/11/bush-at-yad-vashem/#comment-146190</guid>
		<description>For instance, &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this wikipedia page on genocides in history&lt;/a&gt; doesn&#039;t even mention it, nor the &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Genocides_in_history&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;discussion page associated with it&lt;/a&gt; (where someone could be expected to lodge a complaint).
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For instance, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history" rel="nofollow">this wikipedia page on genocides in history</a> doesn&#8217;t even mention it, nor the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Genocides_in_history" rel="nofollow">discussion page associated with it</a> (where someone could be expected to lodge a complaint).</p>
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		<title>By: DanielH</title>
		<link>http://deanesmay.com/2008/01/11/bush-at-yad-vashem/#comment-146189</link>
		<dc:creator>DanielH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jan 2008 12:35:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deanesma.nexcess.net/2008/01/11/bush-at-yad-vashem/#comment-146189</guid>
		<description>Can you point me to a historical estimate besides the professor K.S. Lal&#039;s (which I linked above)?  His estimate was 60-80 million, and it spanned a 525 year time frame.  It sounds as if you might be talking of a single event, which would be more of a candidate for &quot;genocide&quot;.  I&#039;d read about it if only you showed me where to look.  I did do a search on the internet but failed to come up with anything but the study I already referenced and a bunch of propaganda sites.  If you really believe this event occurred, then I don&#039;t see why you would keep the information to yourself.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can you point me to a historical estimate besides the professor K.S. Lal&#8217;s (which I linked above)?  His estimate was 60-80 million, and it spanned a 525 year time frame.  It sounds as if you might be talking of a single event, which would be more of a candidate for &#8220;genocide&#8221;.  I&#8217;d read about it if only you showed me where to look.  I did do a search on the internet but failed to come up with anything but the study I already referenced and a bunch of propaganda sites.  If you really believe this event occurred, then I don&#8217;t see why you would keep the information to yourself.</p>
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		<title>By: CaliforniaJOSH</title>
		<link>http://deanesmay.com/2008/01/11/bush-at-yad-vashem/#comment-146188</link>
		<dc:creator>CaliforniaJOSH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jan 2008 02:30:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deanesma.nexcess.net/2008/01/11/bush-at-yad-vashem/#comment-146188</guid>
		<description>Your approach sounds a lot like the Iranian denial of the jewish holocaust. The Hindu holocaust is documented, the estimate is 20 million, and it varies (greatly), because the muslim invaders weren&#039;t exactly good accountants.
&lt;BR /&gt;
&lt;BR /&gt;You can sit there and disbelieve all you want, just like Iran&#039;s &#039;president&#039; can disbelieve the jewish holocaust and the existence of iranian homosexuals,
&lt;BR /&gt;and many others will simply laugh. The evidence is out there, open your eyes and you might see it.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your approach sounds a lot like the Iranian denial of the jewish holocaust. The Hindu holocaust is documented, the estimate is 20 million, and it varies (greatly), because the muslim invaders weren&#8217;t exactly good accountants.</p>
<p>You can sit there and disbelieve all you want, just like Iran&#8217;s &#8216;president&#8217; can disbelieve the jewish holocaust and the existence of iranian homosexuals,<br />
<br />and many others will simply laugh. The evidence is out there, open your eyes and you might see it.</p>
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		<title>By: DanielH</title>
		<link>http://deanesmay.com/2008/01/11/bush-at-yad-vashem/#comment-146187</link>
		<dc:creator>DanielH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jan 2008 21:46:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deanesma.nexcess.net/2008/01/11/bush-at-yad-vashem/#comment-146187</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;BR /&gt;Do some research and disprove it yourself. I&#039;m not wasting my time doing research for somebody like you.
&lt;BR /&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;BR /&gt;I can&#039;t spend my time debunking every piece of wild speculation out there.  If there were actual evidence for your claim, I might be more interested in doing the research and sharing the results.  I take your second sentence to mean that you don&#039;t like Muslims.  You are certainly free to do so, even if it is irrational.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
<br />Do some research and disprove it yourself. I&#8217;m not wasting my time doing research for somebody like you.<br />
</p></blockquote>
<p>I can&#8217;t spend my time debunking every piece of wild speculation out there.  If there were actual evidence for your claim, I might be more interested in doing the research and sharing the results.  I take your second sentence to mean that you don&#8217;t like Muslims.  You are certainly free to do so, even if it is irrational.</p>
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		<title>By: CaliforniaJOSH</title>
		<link>http://deanesmay.com/2008/01/11/bush-at-yad-vashem/#comment-146186</link>
		<dc:creator>CaliforniaJOSH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jan 2008 19:51:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deanesma.nexcess.net/2008/01/11/bush-at-yad-vashem/#comment-146186</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;BR /&gt;Can you please share your source for this? As far as I know, the methodology employed for such a conclusion is far less scientific than the Lancet methodology -- the historians took a population estimate of Hindu India around 1000 and then another around 1525, and ascribed all the difference to acts of Muslim conquerors (like this book). Even if the estimates are true, the causes are surely multiple, and even if many of the losses are due to brutal wars led by Muslim invaders, they are multiple events caused by multiple people and groups (Arabs, Persians, Afghans, Turks, and Mongols are not the same people), and, finally, that doesn&#039;t prove the goal of the conquests, however bloody, was to wipe out the Hindu ethnic groups. So, these estimates are hardly comparable to the Nazi genocide of Jews during WWII.
&lt;BR /&gt;
&lt;BR /&gt;That you unquestioningly accept these numbers says more about your own biases than it does about real history.
&lt;BR /&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;BR /&gt;
&lt;BR /&gt;Do some research and disprove it yourself. I&#039;m not wasting my time doing research for somebody like you.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
<br />Can you please share your source for this? As far as I know, the methodology employed for such a conclusion is far less scientific than the Lancet methodology &#8212; the historians took a population estimate of Hindu India around 1000 and then another around 1525, and ascribed all the difference to acts of Muslim conquerors (like this book). Even if the estimates are true, the causes are surely multiple, and even if many of the losses are due to brutal wars led by Muslim invaders, they are multiple events caused by multiple people and groups (Arabs, Persians, Afghans, Turks, and Mongols are not the same people), and, finally, that doesn&#8217;t prove the goal of the conquests, however bloody, was to wipe out the Hindu ethnic groups. So, these estimates are hardly comparable to the Nazi genocide of Jews during WWII.</p>
<p>That you unquestioningly accept these numbers says more about your own biases than it does about real history.<br />
</p></blockquote>
<p>Do some research and disprove it yourself. I&#8217;m not wasting my time doing research for somebody like you.</p>
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		<title>By: Naftali</title>
		<link>http://deanesmay.com/2008/01/11/bush-at-yad-vashem/#comment-146185</link>
		<dc:creator>Naftali</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jan 2008 19:35:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deanesma.nexcess.net/2008/01/11/bush-at-yad-vashem/#comment-146185</guid>
		<description>Ron,
&lt;BR /&gt;
&lt;BR /&gt;I don&#039;t understand why you take umbrage when people from afar suggest that Jews have a right, and ought, to behave unflinchingly in the conduct of their war with the enemy, but when mendacious Goyim claim from equally far away that the Jews are &#039;morally&#039; obligated to tolerate the falling of rockets on our woman and children unless we find a magical way to separate arab woman and children from the arabs who fire those rockets, you say nothing.
&lt;BR /&gt;
&lt;BR /&gt;I&quot;m sure you are aware that there are plenty of Jews in the holy land who hold the views that for some reason those outside of Israel are not &#039;allowed&#039; to hold, and when their political parties are not banned and their media not silenced, they manage to make a coherent case for them.
&lt;BR /&gt;
&lt;BR /&gt;So why don&#039;t you just stop trying to delegitimize opinions you hold unwise and distasteful. Argue your views all you like, but leave the tactic of delegitimizing positions for Jewish strength to the mendacious arm chair moralizers.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ron,</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t understand why you take umbrage when people from afar suggest that Jews have a right, and ought, to behave unflinchingly in the conduct of their war with the enemy, but when mendacious Goyim claim from equally far away that the Jews are &#8216;morally&#8217; obligated to tolerate the falling of rockets on our woman and children unless we find a magical way to separate arab woman and children from the arabs who fire those rockets, you say nothing.</p>
<p>I&#8221;m sure you are aware that there are plenty of Jews in the holy land who hold the views that for some reason those outside of Israel are not &#8216;allowed&#8217; to hold, and when their political parties are not banned and their media not silenced, they manage to make a coherent case for them.</p>
<p>So why don&#8217;t you just stop trying to delegitimize opinions you hold unwise and distasteful. Argue your views all you like, but leave the tactic of delegitimizing positions for Jewish strength to the mendacious arm chair moralizers.</p>
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		<title>By: DanielH</title>
		<link>http://deanesmay.com/2008/01/11/bush-at-yad-vashem/#comment-146184</link>
		<dc:creator>DanielH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jan 2008 14:56:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deanesma.nexcess.net/2008/01/11/bush-at-yad-vashem/#comment-146184</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;BR /&gt;As far as I know, the genocide of Hindus by Muslims is the largest known genocide in history.
&lt;BR /&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;BR /&gt;Can you please share your source for this?  As far as I know, the methodology employed for such a conclusion is far less scientific than the Lancet methodology -- the historians took a population estimate of Hindu India around 1000 and then another around 1525, and ascribed all the difference to acts of Muslim conquerors (&lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_Muslim_Population_in_Medieval_India&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;like this book&lt;/a&gt;).  Even if the estimates are true, the causes are surely multiple, and even if many of the losses are due to brutal wars led by Muslim invaders, they are multiple events caused by multiple people and groups (Arabs, Persians, Afghans, Turks, and Mongols are not the same people), and, finally, that doesn&#039;t prove the goal of the conquests, however bloody, was to wipe out the Hindu ethnic groups.  So, these estimates are hardly comparable to the Nazi genocide of Jews during WWII.
&lt;BR /&gt;
&lt;BR /&gt;That you unquestioningly accept these numbers says more about your own biases than it does about real history.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
<br />As far as I know, the genocide of Hindus by Muslims is the largest known genocide in history.<br />
</p></blockquote>
<p>Can you please share your source for this?  As far as I know, the methodology employed for such a conclusion is far less scientific than the Lancet methodology &#8212; the historians took a population estimate of Hindu India around 1000 and then another around 1525, and ascribed all the difference to acts of Muslim conquerors (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_Muslim_Population_in_Medieval_India" rel="nofollow">like this book</a>).  Even if the estimates are true, the causes are surely multiple, and even if many of the losses are due to brutal wars led by Muslim invaders, they are multiple events caused by multiple people and groups (Arabs, Persians, Afghans, Turks, and Mongols are not the same people), and, finally, that doesn&#8217;t prove the goal of the conquests, however bloody, was to wipe out the Hindu ethnic groups.  So, these estimates are hardly comparable to the Nazi genocide of Jews during WWII.</p>
<p>That you unquestioningly accept these numbers says more about your own biases than it does about real history.</p>
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		<title>By: Arnold Harris</title>
		<link>http://deanesmay.com/2008/01/11/bush-at-yad-vashem/#comment-146183</link>
		<dc:creator>Arnold Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jan 2008 13:58:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deanesma.nexcess.net/2008/01/11/bush-at-yad-vashem/#comment-146183</guid>
		<description>Ron, I see that I misidentified some of these folks I wrote about. The guys in the knitted kipot apparently are not the &quot;Haredim&quot;, but are the modern orthodox Zionists, who live together with other Jews, whose wives go to work like everyone else, who serve willingly in Israel&#039;s Zahal, and who ferociously defend Israel&#039;s right to the complete Land of Israel.
&lt;BR /&gt;
&lt;BR /&gt;The ones in the funny black hats, knee high black stockings, and the rest of their 17th century polish regalia, and who reject Zionism and the State of Israel but who still live their under protection of the rest of the Jews, can eat their own excrement for all I care.
&lt;BR /&gt;
&lt;BR /&gt;Arnold Harris
&lt;BR /&gt;Mount Horeb WI
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ron, I see that I misidentified some of these folks I wrote about. The guys in the knitted kipot apparently are not the &#8220;Haredim&#8221;, but are the modern orthodox Zionists, who live together with other Jews, whose wives go to work like everyone else, who serve willingly in Israel&#8217;s Zahal, and who ferociously defend Israel&#8217;s right to the complete Land of Israel.</p>
<p>The ones in the funny black hats, knee high black stockings, and the rest of their 17th century polish regalia, and who reject Zionism and the State of Israel but who still live their under protection of the rest of the Jews, can eat their own excrement for all I care.</p>
<p>Arnold Harris<br />
<br />Mount Horeb WI</p>
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		<title>By: Arnold Harris</title>
		<link>http://deanesmay.com/2008/01/11/bush-at-yad-vashem/#comment-146182</link>
		<dc:creator>Arnold Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jan 2008 04:43:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deanesma.nexcess.net/2008/01/11/bush-at-yad-vashem/#comment-146182</guid>
		<description>Ron, I&#039;m not in position to make life and death decisions for your fellow Jews. All I&#039;m doing is to hope they come to the same conclusion about their situation; which is to play the role of a snall nation being re-assembled amid a large pack of human wolves baying at the moon for their blood.
&lt;BR /&gt;
&lt;BR /&gt;The Jews of Israel can no more reason with the Arabs than they could have done with the Sturm Abteilung on the streets of the cities of Germany on Kristallnacht in 1938.
&lt;BR /&gt;
&lt;BR /&gt;Maybe even less so; The Germans were just having a good time and probably had not thought out that to what mass murderous end all the festering hatred of the Nazi Party was leading them.
&lt;BR /&gt;
&lt;BR /&gt;But I think the Arabs have always seen the return of the Jews to their ancient homeland -- first to the growing Yishuv and now to the still growing State of Israel -- as a direct threat to their unlimited hegemony over the semitic lands of the Middle East.
&lt;BR /&gt;
&lt;BR /&gt;So the Arabs have turned Jew-hatred into a self-induced mass hysteria that shows no signs ever of abating. Any so-called peace moves they make are little more than barely-concealed tactical tricks to shrink Israel to a smaller and presumably more conquerable size.
&lt;BR /&gt;
&lt;BR /&gt;Therefore, as I see it, Israel must always be prepared to fight or die. And they can only gain safety by pushing back the arab populations that threaten their heartland with the kinds of daily attacks now suffered by the small city of Sderot near the Gaza border.
&lt;BR /&gt;
&lt;BR /&gt;As for me sitting around in the semi-retired comfort of Wisconsin, just what the hell have you ever done for your own people, other than sit around in your law office in some Manhattan tower, and occasionally eat ice cream at the same counter with some local Arabs on Christmas night in Jersey?
&lt;BR /&gt;
&lt;BR /&gt;Or do you seriously imagine that all your prayers will stop arab rifle bullets or protect Sderot from Arab rockets? That was the defense that the degenerate byzantine Greeks of the mid-15th century tried when the Ottomans besieged their city. They all crowded together in the great Saint Sophia basilica and prayed their heads off, rather than manning the triple walls that defended their imperial city. For that, they got the degradation of a conquered nation, and not a few of them had their heads lopped off before they had a further chance to pray them off.
&lt;BR /&gt;
&lt;BR /&gt;The religious Jews I respect the most are the tough Haredim with the knitted kipot, who all take up arms in defense of Israel and who are ready alike to kill the enemies of their nation -- and, for not a few of them -- to take down the traitorous and cringing Jews who sign away parts of their country to the enemy.
&lt;BR /&gt;
&lt;BR /&gt;But I think I have you pegged. So just go back to your prayers and pretend that&#039;s all it takes to defend a nation against yet another mass extinction.
&lt;BR /&gt;
&lt;BR /&gt;Arnold Harris
&lt;BR /&gt;Mount Horeb WI
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ron, I&#8217;m not in position to make life and death decisions for your fellow Jews. All I&#8217;m doing is to hope they come to the same conclusion about their situation; which is to play the role of a snall nation being re-assembled amid a large pack of human wolves baying at the moon for their blood.</p>
<p>The Jews of Israel can no more reason with the Arabs than they could have done with the Sturm Abteilung on the streets of the cities of Germany on Kristallnacht in 1938.</p>
<p>Maybe even less so; The Germans were just having a good time and probably had not thought out that to what mass murderous end all the festering hatred of the Nazi Party was leading them.</p>
<p>But I think the Arabs have always seen the return of the Jews to their ancient homeland &#8212; first to the growing Yishuv and now to the still growing State of Israel &#8212; as a direct threat to their unlimited hegemony over the semitic lands of the Middle East.</p>
<p>So the Arabs have turned Jew-hatred into a self-induced mass hysteria that shows no signs ever of abating. Any so-called peace moves they make are little more than barely-concealed tactical tricks to shrink Israel to a smaller and presumably more conquerable size.</p>
<p>Therefore, as I see it, Israel must always be prepared to fight or die. And they can only gain safety by pushing back the arab populations that threaten their heartland with the kinds of daily attacks now suffered by the small city of Sderot near the Gaza border.</p>
<p>As for me sitting around in the semi-retired comfort of Wisconsin, just what the hell have you ever done for your own people, other than sit around in your law office in some Manhattan tower, and occasionally eat ice cream at the same counter with some local Arabs on Christmas night in Jersey?</p>
<p>Or do you seriously imagine that all your prayers will stop arab rifle bullets or protect Sderot from Arab rockets? That was the defense that the degenerate byzantine Greeks of the mid-15th century tried when the Ottomans besieged their city. They all crowded together in the great Saint Sophia basilica and prayed their heads off, rather than manning the triple walls that defended their imperial city. For that, they got the degradation of a conquered nation, and not a few of them had their heads lopped off before they had a further chance to pray them off.</p>
<p>The religious Jews I respect the most are the tough Haredim with the knitted kipot, who all take up arms in defense of Israel and who are ready alike to kill the enemies of their nation &#8212; and, for not a few of them &#8212; to take down the traitorous and cringing Jews who sign away parts of their country to the enemy.</p>
<p>But I think I have you pegged. So just go back to your prayers and pretend that&#8217;s all it takes to defend a nation against yet another mass extinction.</p>
<p>Arnold Harris<br />
<br />Mount Horeb WI</p>
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		<title>By: Ronald Coleman</title>
		<link>http://deanesmay.com/2008/01/11/bush-at-yad-vashem/#comment-146181</link>
		<dc:creator>Ronald Coleman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jan 2008 04:02:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deanesma.nexcess.net/2008/01/11/bush-at-yad-vashem/#comment-146181</guid>
		<description>Arnold, as ever, you are &lt;b&gt;so&lt;/b&gt; tough when you write on blogs.  Your willingness to apply a scorched-earth policy, while sitting in semi-retired comfort in Wisconsin, must be so inspiring to the people with real responsibility for making real life and death decisions.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Arnold, as ever, you are <b>so</b> tough when you write on blogs.  Your willingness to apply a scorched-earth policy, while sitting in semi-retired comfort in Wisconsin, must be so inspiring to the people with real responsibility for making real life and death decisions.</p>
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