Ladies and gentlemen, the Reverend Jeremiah Wright:
Trivia question: why do we care about this guy and what he has to say?
Defending the liberal tradition in history, science, and philosophy.
Defending the liberal tradition in history, science, and philosophy.
Ladies and gentlemen, the Reverend Jeremiah Wright:
Trivia question: why do we care about this guy and what he has to say?
{ 60 comments }
Because its fun to watch Democrats use their divisive political games of race and gender against each other for once!
I dunno, but if we should care about him, we should care about this guy too.
Because Obama apparently was a member of his church for over 2o years. It’s been my experience that people generally change churches if they have fundamental disagreements with the clergy. Didn’t he also get credited for coming for the title of his book ‘The Audacity of Hope’?
I can understand not tarring someone simply by association, but Obama’s tenure with this man appears to be far deeper then merely associates.
Yeah, Pentacostalists and other bible-thumping fundamentalists tend to be among the most obnoxious members of the Protestant fold (and they are indeed a minority in the Protestant fold). Wright and Parsley spring from very similar roots, as it happens. They tend to think of that obnoxiousness as Godly, and to point to a few incidents here and there where biblical figures got obnoxious as justification for such behavior on their part.
By the way, isn’t the “he ain’t rich” line pretty amusing, considering that Barak and Michelle are ivy league educated multimillionaires? %-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d036oDVEehY
a musical rebuttal
Because he’s father bashing? He talks about Obama being raised by a single mother, which is a pretty deceptive framing of the issue.
Obama’s parents were married when he was born. They seperated and divorced when he was 2 (wikipedia does not relate to what degree his father remained involved in his life). When he was 6, his mother remarried. When he was 10, he went to live with his maternal grandparents, who raised him until he left for college.
He did spend 4 years in a single parent household, but he had at least two actively involved parental figures for most (perhaps all) of his childhood, and to describe him as being raised by a single black mother ignores the contributions to his upbringing by his father, his stepfather, and both of his maternal grandparents.
But then, if I talked about everything nutty or hateful in this speech I’d be here all day.
because Obama secretly believes and agrees with every single thing this guy says?
Because this guy’s church is all about and only about this nonsense, and doesn’t have any other content in his sermons, ever?
Because there is no such thing as a church community, only a preacher speaking to robots?
Aziz Poonawalla’s last blog post..Andre Carson wins IN CD-7 special election
What you mean “we”, Kemosabe?
It all depends on how many people he can manage to influence.
Oh, and also, the amount of political power held by anyone who might be influence by this particular sort of differently patriotic rhetoric.
How about because he is part of Obama’s campaign?
Phelps’s last blog post..Hoax Update
Back in the 1950′s my father had some doctrine issues with the parish pastor. Things got so bad that one Sunday during the sermon he stood up and walked out. He stopped attending mass there, and got into the habit of not going to church until a few weeks before he died 20 years later.
Either Obama doesn’t disagree with the pastor as much as my father did, or my father – a working class Irish-American man – had more integrity.
Scott Kirwin’s last blog post..Home And the Range
All those statements are anything but controversial in the african american community.
and all those statements validate pretty much everything geraldine ferraro said.
Whereas the Roman Catholic Church doesn’t even need a Biblical foundation for its doctrine.
It’s hypocritical of you to wag your finger at the Pentecostals when your own flavor of Christianity feels free to do the same thing. They just justify it by tradition rather than Biblical example.
Whatever.
You don’t like the Charismatic branch of Christianity. We get it. You can stop smacking it every chance you get now.
But please stop acting like Catholics all are working from the same book whereas Protestantism isn’t. There are some 23 separate churches that operate under the banner of the Roman Catholic Church. And, I’m sure if we looked further, we’d find even further division.
Catholicism is just as fractured as Protestantism. Just as willing to justify whatever it wants to do by Divine Accord as well.
Kevin,
Plus at least most Protestants have actually read and studied the Word of God. I’m shocked that catholics for the most part are content to remain ignorant of what the bible actually teaches.
It is my understanding the minister blames America for Sept.11th and all wars we have had. This gives me the creeps. I also think of how Obama wants to end the war in Iraq and some things he has said regarding foreign policy.
Kevin,
Bible thumpers or obnoxious fundamentalists are not representative of the Charismatic branch. And I do believe Dean said they were indeed a minority.
I must attend one of those fractured Catholic Churches that don’t adhere to this “not need a Bible doctrine”.
Tg
And there lies the problem; the fact that this is widely accepted rhetoric.
Urthshu
Ah, but she was white. See racism can only exist one way from WASPS to anyone else; b/c you know, it’s not about prejudice it’s about power. I’m so tired of all these race shananigans….Bill Cosby had it right.
La Ventanita’s last blog post..Racist Democrats?
Kevin: No, the Catholic Church wrote, edited, and preserved the Bible for over 1,000 years before Protestantism even existed, and holds that the Bible is inerrant on matters of the faith. With only a bare handful of minor exceptions, all doctrines are supported by scripture, and none are refuted by it. You’d do better in these discussions if you knew what Catholics actually believe and practice, instead of assuming you know; your assumptions lead you into countless errors like this, and make you look foolish.
Also, by the way, the Catholic church isn’t fractured; the core doctrines have not changed in 2,000 years and are unlikely to any time soon. Charismatics (who are, by the way, not even close to a majority of Protestants, let alone Christians) can’t even get it together on what a sacrament is or which Bible version or translation is authoritative.
Furthermore, being obnoxious and rude in the name of the faith is not something typical for Catholics or most Protestants. It is typical for many Pentacostalists and some Baptists, neither of which represents a majority of Protestants. You don’t have to like the fact for it to be true; you yourself have said many times that getting obnoxious is what Christians are supposed to do. You even said that “go forth and piss people off” is what a good Christian is supposed to do, and gave me Bible verses to try to justify it. You want me to point out to you where you did? And it’s not just you, others from your minority branch of the faith have said similar things many times to me.
You can either refute that Christians are supposed to be rude and obnoxious, or, you can embrace it. But you shouldn’t blame me for pointing out that there is a subset of Christians who behave this way, especially when you yourself have proudly embraced it in this very forum.
La Ventanita: Yeah. I clearly said most Protestants aren’t like that. It gets wearisome to have to repeat that. But go to a Pentacostalist service, or many (not all) Baptist ones, and you’re likely to hear a firebreather on the pulpit, often shrieking at the top of the lungs as he or others present are “slain in the Spirit” or something similar. It’s just plain common. I can understand why someone wouldn’t be comfortable with that, but I don’t understand why anyone would be angry for simply noting that it happens; I’ve talked to more than one member of that branch of the faith that actually holds you’re speaking with “the voice of the Holy Spirit” when you get that way. [shrug]
Aziz,
ABC News pretty much destroyed your argument before you made it. They went through many recorded sermons by the man and found a strong pattern or Anti-Americanism.
White or Black, this is what this minor part of Charismatic Protestants do: they wrap biblical teachings around their own particular (self) righteous agenda. For Barak’s Pastor it’s how America is an evil force in the world, for others it is about chewing out the community for their own destructive behaviors, and for still others it is about how a particular group (Jews, Muslims, the Rotary Club) is pure evil and will destroy the world. Make no mistake, these preachers have an agenda that they pound on in every sermon.
And finally, anyone who says or accepts for 20 years his religious leader say “God Damn America” can’t have any love for this country. I know many religious people who love America but see it as troubled but say “God Bless America” as to remove it’s troubles; heck, even those who are ambivalent about the good/evil of America and it’s actions say “God Guide America”. Only someone (like Fred Phelps) would say “God Damn America”.
Because he’s Obama’s mentor!
Dean,
The catholic church most certainly did not write the Bible. Also, other than baptism and the Lord’s supper, noe of the other ceremonies catholics cansider to be sacraments are biblically proscribed.
DanielH,
Parsley is an extremist, but that quote of McCain calling him a “spiritual guide” was from a little over 2 weeks ago when McCain was trying to edge out Huckabee for the evangelical vote.
2 weeks vs. 20 years. Obama had to know and he has tacitly agreed (by sticking with the man for so long) with the Reverend’s views; McCain, on the other hand, could probably just not known or not known the extent. I’d expect McCain to distance himself from Parsely; Obama can’t, however, since he’s been with the guy so long.
Sigaliris: It most certainly did. Are you under the impression that somehow the Bible magically appeared in a puff of smoke?
As for the sacraments, you will find that bible thumpers (i.e. an extremist minority of the Sola Scriptura camp) disagree constantly in what is and is not a sacrament and/or in how or when it’s valid. It’s just a trait they have. They often schism from each other over all sorts of things like that.
You are free to disagree with the majority of the world’s Christians on what the sacraments are; such disagreements are, arguably, one of the defining traits of Protestantism. [shrug] The Catholics and the Orthodox have not, however, changed their position on these things since the earliest days of the faith–indeed, considerable evidence shows they were in practice long before anyone knew what a “Bible” was. Now you can argue that the early Church got all that wrong if you want to, but you’re not free to just make stuff up; the church’s doctrines on the sacraments are NOT contradicted by scripture, although they do rely on extra-scriptural sources for support (and since the Bible itself does the same thing, it’s hard to object to that in my view–but you’re free to disagree).
The preacher does not like America. Some people see America, flaws and all, as the last, best hope for mankind. Some don’t.
This guy focuses on the flaws, and, sadly, likely re-inforces a belief in America’s worst aspects among his flock.
Does this spread to Obama? A little bit. Certainly, to the extent Obama agrees with this preacher or maintains a silence.
HankB
Hank,
You said it much better than I. The man concentrates on our flaws.
Aziz says,
“because Obama secretly believes and agrees with every single thing this guy says?
Because this guy’s church is all about and only about this nonsense, and doesn’t have any other content in his sermons, ever?
Because there is no such thing as a church community, only a preacher speaking to robots?”
Why, Aziz, are you judging Obama favorably? Here is an obvious problem. It speaks to the attitudes of the candidate. If McCain attended a Church for 20 years where they spoke this way of Black America and honored David Duke as a speaker of truth, would you be defending McCain? And if McCain’s wife publicly echoed such sentiments? I find it hard to understand why you go to these lenghts to defend Obama from the consequences of his association with this preacher.
Your arguments themselves puzzle me.
(Sarcasm)
“because Obama secretly believes and agrees with every single thing this guy says?”
If he doesn’t agree, why the silence? Just go somewhere else. The obvious conclusion is: someone with that attitude is not disqualified by him. So Obama’s appointments could include such people. Why isn’t that a problem to you?
(Sarcasm) “Because this guy’s church is all about and only about this nonsense, and doesn’t have any other content in his sermons, ever?” Even if he has some nice sermons, the man who would be President, the so called Patriot that wants to serve his country, should find this sermon a disqualifying factor and leave this church. If he wants to be my President anyway. But wait, Obama doesn’t want to serve his country, he wants to change it. Given his chosen church, it’s not hard to see why.
(Sarcasm) “Because there is no such thing as a church community, only a preacher speaking to robots?” Would you, as a non robot, accept a leader like this? Don’t leaders have an impact on their followers? And don’t followers impact their leaders? So, if this is Obama’s chosen church, I must assume Obama agrees, at least on some level.
Kevin,
The Reverend Wright has a bible based church.
Isn’t that a joy ?
One should worry that Hussein Obama dragged his children to the haven of slime from the day they were born until he moved to D.C. and still maintained an associations with the leader of the Black KKK of Chicago. You figure out the difference in a David Duke KKK meeting and a KKK sermon by Wright.
Sure I care what he has to say. Because what he said is one more nail in what could well be the coffin of Senator Barack Obama’s 2008 presidential campaign. And I am one of what I think will be some 50-75 million small time vicarious undertakers for that funeral.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
So all you folks who are convinced this fella is the anti-American radical black supremacist that will cause the downfall of our great nation….where’d you get your information?
Did you get it from the cherry picked snippets circulating cable at the moment? Did you get it from watching one or two sermons available on tape?
Or did you get it from knowing the church and it’s leader and their WHOLE body of work?
Suppose I posted a blog entry that said that blacks are subhuman and cause all the problems in the world and that all blacks should be rounded up and shipped off to Africa.
Would you need to read the rest of my blog to decide whether or not I was a racist? Or would that “cherry picked” entry be enough?
Phelps’s last blog post..Hoax Update
G Davis,
“So all you folks who are convinced this fella is the anti-American radical black supremacist that will cause the downfall of our great nation….where’d you get your information?
Did you get it from the cherry picked snippets circulating cable at the moment? Did you get it from watching one or two sermons available on tape?
Or did you get it from knowing the church and it’s leader and their WHOLE body of work?”
How do you know anyone on this blog thinks that way? Did you get your information by reading everything anyone on this blog ever wrote or did you just cherry pick a post or two?
I see you’re all rather defensive about my comment…how about looking at it as a sincere question?
I’ve seen the snippets and I have to say I’m not happy about them. They are contrary to just about everything I believe personally and what I thought Obama stood for.
I found this blog by googling the good Reverend…looking for some real info on the whole mess.
Everywhere I look though, all I’m seeing is reaction to these 30 second snippets so why wouldn’t I ask where you got your info?
How about if I scour Clinton and McCain’s pastors (if they have one) and see if I can find a couple of 30 second screw ups or even hard truths? Should I base my opinion on those snippets, or should I look for their whole body of work?
Now do you get the questions? Do you have any good info that I can’t find on the net? Or do we really get to the point that we judge an entire congregation on one participants weirder quirks?
Please do. That is information I would like to have.
Phelps’s last blog post..Hoax Update
G Davis,
Not defensive, just probing you. I hardly find awarding Louis Farakhan a truth teller award to be a “slip up”. Sounds like a worldview to me.
Good on ABC News for picking up Wright’s “G. D. America” sermons. The race thing i didn’t care about, but this is quite breathtaking:
http abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4443788&page=1
Inv A. DeSoda’s last blog post..Another Kind of Self-Determination
Oh, and this
So Wright has been demoted from mentor to the crazy aunt in the basement.
Inv A. DeSoda’s last blog post..Another Kind of Self-Determination
I’m still looking for ANYTHING about HRC’s or McCain’s churches, let alone their pastors…but it suddenly occured to me does this flap finally put to rest the insidious rumors that Obama is a Muslim?
;)
Maniakes–Barack Obama’s mother isn’t black. So even for those four years between marriages, he was raised by a single WHITE woman, not a single black woman.
Here’s an interesting article on Hillary’s involvement since ’93 with the *secretive* group the Fellowship…most of the names given in this article are viewed by women’s groups as being pretty vile, but i doubt anyone would actually accuse Hillary of being in any way against women’s issues:
http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/224908.aspx
The above article also begs the question if any of these so called religious issues are something that should be wrapped in politics or visa versa. It’s a good, moderate read.
The original article the one above got it’s quotes from:
http://www.motherjones.com/cgi-bin/print_article.pl?url=http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2007/09/hillarys-prayer.html
The site of Rev. Rob Schenck’s of the Fellowship…lots of interesting links there about all the different candidates and this fella’s take on the validity of each’s faith:
http://www.faithandaction.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=feature.search
As I’m shuffling through all this judgmentalism, Sean Hannity is airing in the background. I suddenly find myself repulsed by the sanctimonious attitude of all these folks that seem to feel qualified to judge another by their assoiciation with any person.
It’s really presumptuous. It’s arrogant. I am hoping that two things will come from this…1) Obama can finally rid himself of the underground smear email campaign that he’s a Muslim and that is somehow a disqualifier to be President of the supposed religiously free nation we are and 2) we can finally get at the least an honest conversation started about the place of religion in our politics and at best move beyond this sanctimonious religious litmus test that has overshadowed our politics for far too long.
Anyway…if I run across anything else that might seem pertinent to this discussion on this blog, I’ll post it. Since I’m finding the whole kerfuffle so distasteful, though, I retract my questions about what the other candidates associations have said over the years. I don’t care anymore…I will move forward judging all these candidates on their OWN words and actions, not those of others around them.
“1) Obama can finally rid himself of the underground smear email campaign that he’s a Muslim and that is somehow a disqualifier to be President of the supposed religiously free nation we are”
I think it’s wonderful that a pastor of the majority religion in the country can be criticized just because he is obviously completely insane?
Now that’s what religious freedom is all about!
“2) we can finally get at the least an honest conversation started about the place of religion in our politics”
What is a dishonest conversation?
I’ve never been able to figure that out, even though people keep saying that that’s the only kind of conversation we have.
Fuck this dude. Barack aint never driven down the road and looked at all the Black men wanting to rape him. Barack aint never walked to his car from the grocery store and been whistled at by drunken black miscreants. Barack aint never been nor will he ever be in the WHITE house.
Wow.
If our country is so far off base, shouldn’t we be saying “God forgive America”–not “God damn America.” I am a sinner and I pray for forgivenss not damnation. By forgiving we are forgiven, and that is biblical. Read the Lord’s prayer!!!
while no fan of hilary – i find it ironic – that the reverend catagorizes hilary with white males of priviledge – arguably her ‘womanhood’ gave her exactly the same ‘struggles’ that he alluded to..
G Davis,
A Presidential election is all about Judgmentalism. That’s what its supposed to be about. If you want to be the Leader – you better not only be a good man, you better not even allow the appearance of your goodness to be blemished. High standards for a high office. Or just stay a Senator from Illinois. Is that fair?
Of course it’s fair mike, except you leave out two parts….1)the fella that said these things is not running for Prez and 2) the fella who IS running for Prez is being judged by a couple of minutes of tape out of 35 years of preaching.
We can demand the best and brightest for our leaders and then we can set up impossible bars for them to reach so we will never get the best…we will continue to be stuck with the politicians who make hay out of the other’s failings.
None of the three running for Prez are perfect. I happen to think Obama is the best of the three with McCain a close second.
I know neither of them comes without flaws. I know they have friends who are not fit to be Prez. I also know that there are all kinds of reasons people befriend folks we might not think fit…and frankly, so long as they aren’t given any positions of power I could care less who their friends are.
I am less sticking up for Obama than I am objecting to how we do this to candidates. We ask where are all the leaders, then we subject those that choose to run to ridiculous standards that no one could ever meet….or we dismiss them on some trumped up BS like this very select viewing of his friends lifelong words.
It’s ridiculous. It’s arrogant and it’s self defeating.
Or we could just keep electing folks like GW…would that make y’all happy?
G. Davis,
I wouldn’t call this a select viewing. I wouldn’t call this out of context. I do believe that you are closing your eyes to what is going on here. This is not playing “gothcha”. Are you aware that Pastor Wright is an outspoken Louis Farakhan admirer? Why doesn’t that mean anything to you?
I believe that if you hate it here so much and America is so racist why don’t you leave this wonderful country.. I am so tired of hearing about how bad black people have it here. If you hate American so much just leave.
Oh now there’s a tolerant attitude…love it or leave it?
The irony is I ask who among the candidates is without flaws and I get that back?
My main point is that what this fella says is no better or worse than what firebrand preachers all over the globe spout…and WHO CARES?
Are we electing any of these preachers? No.
If we stacked, side by side, all the weird friends of all the candidates who comes out best? And do those piles of weird friends make a whit of difference to how these candidates would lead?
Is this Reverend Wright y’all are objecting to or is it the angry black man?
Does policy matter any more or are we going to try to fix the really serious problems this nation faces based on who’s friends with whom?
Since when does America have a problem with ‘freedom of speech?’ We enjoy freedom to blast anyone here, even the president. And even Louis Farakan supporters can say what they want.
If GW didn’t get the ax for lying to the American public, the biggest scandal of the decade, I certainly don’t hold Obama responsible for Reverend Wright’s comments.
Though he graciously responds to the critics, when asked about Wright, Obama has every right to tell those idiots…. ” I can’t answer for another grown man’s comments, why the heck don’t you ask him!!’
Well, I googled to see what all the talk was about with this Rev. I feel that as a Presidential candidate you should and will be put under a microscope. I do believe that all facets of that person are relevant in who they are and how they would “change” our America. Change is always good and we have been waiting patiently for Obama to tell us exactly what those “changes” he speaks of will be. This is one piece of his life that gives us some prospective as to what his values and views are. Even our laws dictate “guilt by association”. I love that I live in a country who’s freedoms are such that we can freely speak of how differently we feel about political views and candidates without our families and lives on the line. God bless America. May the person who will best preserve those freedoms while bringing on welcome changes in equality and prosperity for all be our new president. Only the good people of this great country can decide who that will be.
hey… has anyone bothered to ask 1. how often does obama go to church anyway? he says hes a christian, but does he attend services regularly? and if not why not? and if so, surely he has heard many such instances of the reverands divisive negative,sometimes incendiary, commentary…. and lastly… most certainly he was AWARE that last years HONOREE of the church was Rev. Farakhan – surely that would be enough to change churches, regardless of the pastors comments…. how can he remain a member of a church that gives its greatest honor to an flaming anti-semetic hate monger.
i am sure that next year, they church may ask Se. Obama if he would be honored as well… then we will see what company he wishes to keep….
oh.. and one more thing: Barak Obama’s membership dues to the church helped finance a visit by Rev. Wright and Loius Farakhan to Libia recently to meet Quaddafi. what do you suppose these wise men spoke about anyway? Quadaffi was a direct financial supporter of the hijackers who blew up the american airlines plane over Lockerbie scotland.
are there not enough red flags here or what? all i am saying is that Obama should have distanced himself many years ago from these people… but he didnt and he in fact needed thier support to get elected in illinois….now he wants more, to be president.. and he is leaving those who raised him up to the position he has today….
to put to rest the “obama is a muslim” rumor – Um… YES he is without question. why? simple:
in the muslim faith, if your father is a muslim, you are a muslim.. period! he can disavow all he wants.. but to the muslims, he will always be one of them regardless..
similarly if someones mother is jewish , they are jewish even if they recant, there is no such thing as becoming unjewish… and there is no such thing as becoming Unmuslim… so even if he converted to christianity , he is still a muslim…
Oh good grief…first he’s a muslim (so what if he is) and then he’s a black separatist radical mouth foamer, then he’s a muslim again.
I get it y’all don’t like Obama. I could care less about that.
What I find truly amazing is that most of you are so unwilling to discuss the idea that we have made it virtually impossible for ANY candidate to meet the perfection standards we are setting up for office?
We have a black man running who belongs to a black charismatic church. We don’t like the way his preacher talks…it makes us uncomfortable. There is NOTHING in this young black man’s words or deeds that remotely resembles his preachers words, but we cast him aside just the same as he makes us uncomfortable and he speaks too smoothly.
We have a woman running who is married to an ex-President that disrespected the office the first time around, who is most secretive with her records and shifts positions as easily as the breeze. Do we disqualify her because of those valid reasons? No…we disqualify her because she screeches or is not feminine enough or is too weak or she’s a woman.
We have a genuine war hero who seems reasonable in his approach to governance and has a record as long as we can see of mostly good lawmaking. But we reject him because he’s got a quick temper or he’s too old or doesn’t speak too well or is dull.
Do you not see the selfdefeating stupidity of all this? No wonder we end up with really bad leaders that get us into messes like we’re in now.
I give up. We will get the leaders we deserve if we insist on passing judgment so trivial as who’s preaching in our church rather than what our church and ourselves do.
Good luck.
it was always meant for Hillary to walk it–good luck and may this prevail–there was always a colour gray about Abamas politics
o rly?
ru sure?
Phelps’s last blog post..Gary Hart
Reverend Wright is a self-righteous racist and a jack-ass to boot!
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