So I’ve exchanged your words transposing white=black and black=white. Check it out.

Naturally, one educated in this light looks at the idea of a distinct white people with not a little confusion; since skin color in and of itself is meaningless, and since the American identity is color blind, why is there ‘a white people’? Is there ‘a black people’? Of course not.

It is my hope that white people are one day assimilated into the American identity in the same way early Irish and Italian immigrants were. Not all cultures are equal and the American is one of the healthiest on earth.

Here’s the truth, whole truth and nothin’ but the truth:

Race does not matter, culture does.

I grew up in an urban Blue State, lived in working class neighborhoods with lots of blacks, went to public school with them, played sports with them, listened to Earth, Wind and Fire and Isaac Hayes with them, danced with them, dated some, fought with some, served in the military with some, had quite a delightful childhood, and only few minor problems every once in a while. We all got along pretty darn well.

But, this was way before Gangster Rap and the explosion of out-of-wedlock births. We had Fathers with straps, who set some pretty stern parameters, if you know what I mean.

Nobody cares if you are black. God Bless you. If you are black, wear a nice suit, and get A’s and B’s in High School, Hell, Harvard, Yale and Stanford will be fighting to get you.

What most people care about is culture. If you are poorly dressed, loud, inconsiderate to others, and prone to fighting, — white or black, well, most folks ain’t interested in you. They’re too busy working hard, feeding their kids, trying to pay rent, going to church, reading the sports page, washing their car.

Moreover, the vast majority of blacks are a hard-working folks just trying to make it in a tough world — and THEY are some of the most unfortunate victims of the trouble-makers in their community.

Culture, not race. Say it loud!

HankB

Say we view the black community as “arriving” in the U.S. like any other ethnic group in 1964 or 1965, and feeling comfortable with the wider society in 3-4 generations, just like any other immigrant ethnic group. Is it legitimate to draw comparisons to other immigrant groups in other areas, such as economic success, or family size, or education levels?

In other words, if we say they follow the immigrant pattern in comfort levels, would or should they follow the immigrant pattern in other areas? If the answer is no, wouldn’t that affect their ability to feel comfort in the wider society? If the answer is yes, do we know how the black community compares to immigrant groups who arrived in the mid 1960′s?

I agree with your comment whole heartedly.

I also get a little peeved when folks overlook some other bits of history.

For example, slavery was forbidden in the 1700’s in many states. And in many areas, black men were allowed to vote for more than a century before women could vote.

And in the early 1800’s some areas, like Philadelphia, had a large and flourishing free black population, with wealthy merchant and craftsmen classes, arts communities, and basically every benefit of then-modern civilization.

My point is that there were parts of the US where blacks have been treated as the equals of whites for centuries. And that’s often overlooked.

The policies of the US government didn’t mandate or explicitly sanction oppression or discrimination against blacks. The possible “sin” of the government is that it didn’t go far enough in forbidding slavery or oppression in certain parts of the US.

Still, there was always a large population of whites who fought to have the federal government do more to intervene. And that gets glossed over too.

There is no doubt that some white people were and are racists. But it was the violent death of over a million white people that freed the black people from slavery. And those who died fighting FOR that goal, knew exactly what they were fighting and dying for.

I will give white’s grief for their complicity in initiating and spreading slavery, but I will also give them credit for the incredible sacrifice they made to end it.

CosmicConservative’s last blog post..Fitna?

Your comments on black ethnic identification being comparable to having “just arrived as immigrants” in 1964 is insightful.

The stuff about “free, white and 21,” not so much. Not because it wasn’t true, but because it applied to more ethnic groups than the single group that you seem to feel has been hampered by it. Again I would use the example of native Americans as a group that was far more viciously treated than blacks ever were. To say that Asians could not aspire to “white” but could at least aspire to “non-black” directly counters your whole “free, white and 21″ argument since the saying is not “free, non-black and 21″. Your assertion that denigrating blacks was a ticket to assimilation is no better supported than Urthsu’s was. It surely is your opinion, but that does not make it fact.

CosmicConservative’s last blog post..Fitna?

In other words, it happens, and at one time was very common.

In fact, here’s one of the dirtiest secrets of all, one that a lot of black people try to avoid talking about around non-blacks: there’s a tendency of light-skinned American blacks to look down on darker-skinned ones. No lie. And if you think really hard about it, that’s just about the most sad point of view you can imagine.

Most Italians weren’t considered “white” until well into the 20th Century.

Urthshu is right that other immigrant groups were encouraged until somewhat recent generations to “become white” by looking down on black people, tacitly. There was an old phrase, “free, white and 21,” which was a status to which to aspire. It’s all but disappeared to the point where most people don’t even remember it, but it once was a very common refrain to make you proud to be an American. Asians (“orientals”) could not quite aspire to be white but they could at least aspire not to be black. This is old, dirty laundry, and most people these days just don’t think that way, but it did happen in the past.

My own view is that “Black” is an ethnic identity and not merely a skin color, and once you understand that, a lot of the politics of the black community start making a lot more sense. Caribbean and African immigrants who came here post-slavery, and especially post-1960s, don’t share that ethnic identity even if their skin is as dark as coffee beans. It’s as alien to them as Irish culture or, for that matter, Jewish culture.

The most important point, to my way of thinking, is this: black people were not accorded their full civil rights as Americans until the 1960s. Slavery ended in 1865, but they weren’t even reliably able to vote until the Voting Rights Act of 1965–100 years after the end of slavery.

When viewed from this vantage point, it suddenly becomes apparent that what black ethnic identity looks an awful lot like is immigrants who arrived not on slave ships, but only truly “arrived” around 1964 or 1965, blinking in the sun and not sure what to do with themselves, or even what it meant to be “black” anymore. The community has been struggling with that ever since.

Some of them, by the way, see assimilation as a very negative thing. Why? Well because over multiple generations they developed their own culture, and people who angrily look at them and demand that they just strip it all off and throw it on the trash heap look racist to them. I think they’re wrong to think it racist, but it’s understandable that they do.

I think that, just like most immigrant groups, it takes 2-3, maybe 4 generations to feel fully comfortable in the wider society. By that way of thinking, it’s going to take the black community probably another generation or two–meaning that, by the middle of the 21st century, it’ll probably be 99% a non-issue.