I have part I of Geert Wilder’s Fitna online at City of Brass if you are curious about it. I found it to be a pathetic attempt at equating Islam with terror. I don’t see how this film would actually persuade anyone of the matter, who was not already a raving Islamophobe jafi to begin with.
Part II tomorrow.
{ 38 comments }
The film has no more credibility than would a film that paired Quranic quotations with only positive aspects of Muslims.
Yes, everything in the film is true. But it is not the whole truth. Nowhere are the beliefs, feelings, and actions of the vast majority of Muslims shown, never mind examined or explained.
The film’s purpose is to create discord. It appears to have largely failed at that, fueling only the pre-existing prejudices of a certain audience.
Aziz, I find your response to be…
one of the most reasonable criticisms I’ve seen.
Calling it junk is completely fair game. It’s pretty amateurish.
Alas, far too many people have said it is “not within the bounds of free speech”.
It’s pretty clear it was intended to provoke response. What’s most disturbing, though, is the response of the European apparatchiks and the UN.
Dishman,
There’s one response I respect. In the spirit of “The answer to speech you disagree with is more speech”, a Dutch group is inviting ordinary citizens to make their own response videos by the hundreds, so that anyone looking for Fitna on YouTube is highly likely to see the responses instead.
I really admired their creativity. Then I heard their spokesman say that free speech must be curtailed to protect religious feelinhgs, and I thought, “Almost. You were ALMOST there. And then you jumped the rails.”
Just because I might advise the Israelis to be prepared to ioncinerate Mecca with nuclear weaponry in order to induce the Arabs to keep their hands off the Land of Israel, doesn’t mean that I think Islam in itself causes terrorism.
As a matter of fact, I’ve come to think that Islam minus the Arabs could prove to be one of the world more peaceable religions.
I think, for example, that it was no accident that the Baha’i movement came out of Iran and its particular culture, and not out of any arab land.
On the other hand, people change over time. And who knows? Maybe the arab general culture will modify as well.
In any case, it looks as though Islam will be a normative part of the mix of american religions.
And if you are a sort of casual nonbeliever like me, somebody else’s religion ought not to make any real difference in how you treat them, or expect to be treated in return.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
I salute you for hosting it. I found it ironic that liveleak was given death-threats for doing so.
Amateurish? Yes. Yet most of it is just footage that the Jihadis themselves promoted as their own best foot forward, packaged with the suras that they themselves use to back up their actions.
If anything, it should inform one that the Jihadis are the amateurs and idiots. I think with the ending, where it asks the viewer to fight the menace, it could have been more explicit about fighting that idiocy rather than all Islam, but I tend to think people can make that leap themselves.
also, the link doesn’t seem to work
ah – nevermind – fixed and thanks
Well I watched it. That’s 10 minutes of my life I don’t get back. People deeply persuaded by films like this are people who were already persuaded before they saw it.
You can cherry pick any religious tome to allow you to rationalize darn near anything. Torture a book long enough and it will say anything you tell it to.
So it sucks; if people both Muslims and non hadn’t said a word about it chances are fewer people would have seen it. That’s the way free speech works, and kudos to you Aziz for posting it.
urth, to be honest i dont think there is any real risk involved (i am a very cautious person, I blog publicly under my real name and its not hard to figure out where I and my young children live).
Aziz Poonawalla’s last blog post..Geert Wilder’s Fitna – part I
Scott, i think it hurts itself by being seen. Without making it public people would have some mystical image of it – omfg FITNA! – but this way its idiocy is revealed and laid bare. If this is the best they can do then really theres little to do but laugh.
Aziz Poonawalla’s last blog post..Geert Wilder’s Fitna – part I
The first 5 minutes of it still set my blood boiling. It’s going to be several days before I’ve settled down again. It’s to the point where I hope bin Laden is still alive, that he might know my name before he dies.
In dealing with this, I’ve got a whole lot more respect for Aziz than I do for Ban Ki-Moon. I think the UNSG is part of the problem, while Aziz is part of the solution.
Aziz – There shouldn’t be any risk. The Liveleak people were threatened, however, and they’ve pulled it, moved their kids, etc. Probably more due to the showing of the cartoon within it than the carnage, sadly.
Regardless of the merits of this film as art, free speech or political criticism, if the death threats associated with it don’t chill your blood, you are missing a more important point in the whole affair.
CosmicConservative’s last blog post..Obama, Reagan’s foreign policy heir
Aziz, it looks like YouTube has less courage than you. The film is gone.
Talk about missing an important point…
Some Muslims find this film offensive, and they make death threats.
Aziz finds this film offensive, and he responds by showing people how silly it is.
No one here is dismissing the death threats. But I applaud Aziz for setting an example of how civilized people respond to offensive speech: with more speech. The more the Muslim community responds like Aziz did, the more they’ll persuade undecided Muslims that the extremists are wrong and need to be stopped.
frak, its offline?! argh. If anyone finds more versions online, I would really appreciate your leaving links to it in the comment thread at my blog over there.
I don’t dismiss death threats, but given that the response to fitna has been very restrained, I am also seriously skeptical that any serious ones have been made.
Aziz Poonawalla’s last blog post..Geert Wilder’s Fitna – part I
Yes, Aziz has responded in an appropriate manner. That does not excuse the fact that the filmmaker has had to live in hiding since rumor of this film came out. It sure sounds to me like some here are dismissing the death threats. Especially considering the two deaths for similar “offenses” that precede this film. It’s not an intellectual argument. This man’s life is in actual serious jeopardy.
And I think that is a fair part of the debate to raise.
CosmicConservative’s last blog post..The Daily Toon
“That does not excuse the fact that the filmmaker has had to live in hiding since rumor of this film came out.”
has he really? seems like hes been on the lecture circuit. If he’s in “hiding” he isnt doing a very good job.
Aziz Poonawalla’s last blog post..Geert Wilder’s Fitna – part I
I did not mention, but it is also relevant, that the film has been pulled in large part because of death threats to the internet hosting sites.
I watched the film. I posted it on my own blog. I think it’s pretty lame and pretty obviously rank propaganda.
But the fact that it generates legitimate death threats to the point that it is virtually impossible to keep it online, that is, to me, a very serious issue that is being downplayed and ignored.
And I think that whether you like it or not, that very fact SUPPORTS the point that the film is making.
And I am sick and tired of people who point this out being called “Islamophobes.” That is just as much an attempt to shut down free speech as anything else. If someone disagrees with you, THEY ARE NOT NECESSARILY EVIL!! And suggesting that they are is not an argument, it is a personal attack.
CosmicConservative’s last blog post..The Daily Toon
Aziz:
According to the story I read, he and his family have been living under police protection in conditions he describes as “like a prison.” I have no reason to believe he is lying about this. That does not mean that he cannot, with appropriate security, move about from time to time. Are you suggesting that he is exaggerating the threats on his life?
CosmicConservative’s last blog post..The Daily Toon
Aziz:
I’ve always noticed the tendency of censorship to give an aura of respectability not always deserved, so I salute you for doing the exact opposite.
Inv A. DeSoda’s last blog post..The Assassination Smear 2
CC, I am glad he is under police protection, that seems rather prudent. Is his life actually in danger, though? I really doubt it. Yes, I do think he is as prone to exaggeration about the death threats on his life as he was about the inevitable violent muslim riots that would accompany his film (which of course failed to materialize, to his disappointment I am sure).
It was his choice to make the film. Subsequent whining about the cnditions being like a prison though get pretty much zero sympathy from me.
Google seems t have pulled it for the usual offensive content violation of the TOS reasons, not death threats. That was also why network solutions shut down Wilders website for the film. Death threats are not relevant to that.
Also, I dont think anyone has called you an Islamophobe about this. Yes, it would be legitimate to point out that the film might elicit deat threats. But death threats come in all tpes, from immature prank to serious ones from genuine psychos with means and information to do you actual harm. Getting a cranky email doesnt count; I have had loads of those myself. Including the “you frakking fifth column jerk” and the “you zionist scum” varieties both.
Aziz Poonawalla’s last blog post..Geert Wilder’s Fitna – part I
Aziz:
“Islamophobe” has become the Islamic debate version of “racist” in the black-white race debate. It’s a card that is played, and as soon as it IS played, it shuts down the debate, which is the REASON it is played.
You didn’t just PLAY it, Aziz, you ANTED UP with it. You pretty much said “if this film does anything to convince you, you are a raving Islamophobe” in the original post. If that wasn’t an attempt to proactively shut down opposing views, then I don’t know what it was.
I don’t think that’s reasonable debate.
And I think it is quite remarkably disingenuous to talk about how threatened someone ELSE should feel when they have received death threats.
The story I saw about Livelink pulling it DID IN FACT mention that employees of Livelink had received death threats.
I think you are purposefully dismissing the very real threat of physical harm or death that Wilder (and others) is/are under. If this time it is suddenly and somehow “not serious” then that is quite a remarkable turnaround from the previous hundred or so “offenses” against Islam that have generated fatwahs and death threats that were quite serious.
I don’t like this film, I think it’s poorly done and heavy-handed. But I do believe it is a LEGITIMATE PERSPECTIVE that a citizen of the Netherlands can have after watching TWO of his countrymen slaughtered for speaking out against Islam. He fears for the future of his country. I think his fear is legitimate. His film may be poorly done and heavy handed, but the threat to the national identity of his country is very real, and if in THIS case the death threats are “all in good fun” in the previous TWO cases they came to be fulfilled.
The film is poor. The message has some validity. That’s my perspective. And the death threats that exist support that view.
Your perspective may be quite different. That’s fine. And I give you credit for posting this film. But to discount the potential repercussions of it is a bit disingenuous, I think.
CosmicConservative’s last blog post..Gratuitous, moving eye-candy?
“if this film does anything to convince you, you are a raving Islamophobeâ€
pretty sure I didnt say that.
Aziz Poonawalla’s last blog post..Geert Wilder’s Fitna – part I
To be fair, Aziz, it seems like a pretty close paraphrase of this:
No, Aziz didn’t. I did. And I stand by it 100%.
The lame, paint-by-numbers excuse offered by too many conservatives in objection to the term “Islamophobe” always looks just like this, Sean:
“Islamophobe†has become the Islamic debate version of “racist†in the black-white race debate. It’s a card that is played, and as soon as it IS played, it shuts down the debate, which is the REASON it is played.
To be blunt, bull-fucking shit. If you don’t think something is Islamophobic, you don’t get shut down when someone accuses you of it. You answer, logically and thoughtfully, explaining why your assertions are not Islamophobic.
A simple question: is there any such thing, under any circumstances, ever, an unfair criticism or paranoid, irrational, hateful assertions or beliefs about Islam or Muslims in general? If no, then you’re right Sean, and the term is just used to “shut down” debate because it’s impossible for the phenomenon to exist.
But if it IS possible for it to exist, then it’s just plain intellectual and moral cowardice to whine because you don’t like it when someone’s pulled out a perfectly appropriate, very easily understood term that any reasonably bright child of the age of 10 could grasp that also happens to be shamefully prevalent in some circles, political and religious.
CC, claiming that you are incapable of racism or islamophobia (which is essentially what you did say, since in your own words the only reason these words are put into play is to shut down a presumably correct line of logic) is just as much a cop-out and an excuse not to have to prove yourself as what you’ve accused Aziz of. Dean is right. No one is trying to censor you. If you haven’t been able to convince other people of your position, it’s nobody else’s fault.
“I don’t see how this film would actually persuade anyone of the matter, who was not already a raving Islamophobe jafi to begin with.”
That’s me saying that the movie fails to make a persuasive case. Is this my fault or the fault of the filmmaker? I am strictly critiquing the movie in my post.
Though, Dean and Willow have the larger issue spot on.
Aziz Poonawalla’s last blog post..Geert Wilder’s Fitna – part I
I think it’s pretty good as a straight up documentary. Although its not much more than a collection of some of the worst crimes committed in the name of Islam in the past few years. There’s nothing original there. And the last few minutes are lame.
Its good to see this all collected into one spot for posterities sake. Too much of this stuff does seem to be swept under the rug and quickly forgotten.
Of course, I can’t vouch for the accuracy of the subtitles or Koran verses. But if they’re correct, it’s a much more honest film than, say, Farenhiet 911.
Ignoring all religions, which I do to the best of my ability, I have nothing in particular against Islam. Fact is, being such a strong fan of hardcore military Zionism, I wish the Jews of Israel exhibited more islamic characteristics, because it would make them a tougher nation. (Actually, I think that in the long run, they will do just that, if the Arabs don’t bump them off.)
But both islamophobia and anti-islamophobia get to bore me after just so many retellings. Sort of like endless made-for-television movies about the holocaust, or how nasty we were over here when we put all those poor brave Indians in the reservations and made their kids learn English.
Maybe I really ought to be a little more sympathetic, but sheesh.. enough already. I’m sure the Moslems know how to defend themselves against some crazy comicbook publisher, without all the rest of America chirping like canaries.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
A semi-response here:
http://davidthompson.typepad.com/davidthompson/2008/03/umbrage-and-flu.html
“As usual, umbrage and disgust is directed at those who point to the sacralising of terror by others, rather than those who actually make terror a matter of pious obligation.”
I think that’s an important point: Not so much the umbrage part, but the sacralising of terror part. Whether one likes it or not, these are things being done in the name of Islam. Its unfair and stupid but terrorists are doing exactly that, making a sacrament of death.
Arnold: Just you wait. A former muslim cartoonist is producing an R-rated video based on Mo’s relationship with 9yo Aisha. That’s going to turn everybody’s stomach, I think.
Thanks Urthshu. I left a response on David Thompson’s blog, and I reprint it here:
Perhaps those of us who are very much hawks in the War On Terror are disgusted with Islamophobic films like this precisely because they are irrational and harmful toward our allies in that struggle–the Muslim mainstream.
They make the Jihadis look like they are the real Muslims and all the others are fake. This is terribly depressing and terribly corrosive. That it’s also intellectually shallow and often intellectually dishonest should be equally disturbing.
It is not at all an evasion to point these things out, and it’s an intellectual cop-out to suggest that it’s a neutral moral equivalency. You really can use the Bible in much the same way that the Jihadis use the Koran, which is something too many so-called “critics” of Islam ignore, or even take umbrage with when you suggest it. Indeed, just pointing out the violent and oppressive parts of the Bible will get you labled as “attacking Christianity” and/or an anti-semite. How do I know? It’s happened to me repeatedly.
This discussion goes nowhere until some of you on the right start to admit to the possibility that maybe, just maybe, there is such a thing as irrational, ill-informed fear of Islam. Until you do, there’s no possibility of greater dialog here.
Dean, your tone and tenor usually raises in inverse proportion to your logic and reason, and this is just another case in point.
I stand by my comments. My paraphrasing of Aziz was virtually word for word, I have no idea where Willow gets the idea that I claimed that I could not be racist or Islamophobic. I don’t even know where that’s coming from.
What I am saying is that this documentary has a legitimate perspective, the message is fair, although the delivery is heavy-handed and amateurish.
One thing that I will freely admit is that I do not feel compelled, as many seem to, to try to prove my non-Islamophobic credentials by becoming an apologist for Islamist behavior.
Those who claim that Islamist fascism is the biggest threat to world peace on this planet are correct. Those of you who argue otherwise are, in my opinion, either naive or ignorant. The facts are fairly obvious for anyone who cares to come to conclusions based on facts. To suggest that Holland’s national identity is threatened by an organized attempt to “Islamize” Holland is absolutely a fair point to make. And to point out that those who object to this become the targets of death threats or worse is also absolutely fair and accurate.
Europe is in real trouble over this. And it’s getting worse, not better.
CosmicConservative’s last blog post..My next computer peripheral will be able to print a new computer?
This is one area where I disagree with you, Dean. But I want to make it clear where I’m coming from. I’ve got a slightly different take than Sean.
I do believe that the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful and tolerant, and that the radical jihadis are a minority who are distorting the religion. IMO, it’s the violent jihadis who are attacking Islam, not those who report on it or even criticize them.
I think too many of the outrageous and brutal acts of the jihadis get swept under the rug, overlooked, and forgotten. Some of that is probably due to political correctness, and some is probably political. No doubt there are some folks in the US and abroad who don’t want to be reminded of the very real justifications for our wars.
And I suspect there are more than a few truly moderate and peace loving Muslims who don’t want to be reminded of the radical acts perpetrated in the name of their religion. But forgetting about it won’t make it go away.
So I stand by my original opinion on this film. I see nothing untruthful or dishonest about it. On the other hand, it is amateurish, with no original insights that I can see. But IMO, folks who attack it as anti-Islamic are just shooting the messenger.
You do, however, feel compelled to mischaracterize the positions of others.
Then it’s a good thing that, despite your mischaracterizations, no one here has argued otherwise.
“Radical Islam is dangerous and must be fought” and “The vast majority of Muslims are not radicals” and “Islamophobia offends non-radical Muslims and thus makes it harder to fight radical Islam” are all true statements, with no logical contradiction to be found among them.
I think the real question to ask is this: how many presumably tolerant Muslims will stay tolerant if the 100 million or so radicals chalk up many successes?
Another point, fatalism is a deep root in Arab culture. It motivates people to favor any side that is seen as having momentum. To what extent is this fatalism shared by non-Arab Muslims in the third world? How will it make them respond to the tolerance shown to CAIR and the creeping Islamisation of Europe and eventually the US?
I believe that Dean’s presumption that the vast majority of Muslims are tolerant and want no quarrel with the West is simply that – a presumption. Backed up by no hard data. True, the vast majority are not currently militant. But I believe a case can be made that increased power and influence over Western cultures/societies may increase the proportion of radicals as well as emboldening them. In this manner the War on Terror may very well have a culture war component.
Some may question me and ask – why don’t I give non-militant Muslims the benefit of the doubt? Because I live by the motto: Regarding strangers – respect and suspect. Until the stranger has actually proven himself…
Comments on this entry are closed.