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	<title>Comments on: Netherlands Arrests Cartoonist: Claims Not to Suppress Free Expression</title>
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	<link>http://deanesmay.com/2008/05/18/netherlands-arrests-cartoonist-claims-not-to-suppress-free-expression/</link>
	<description>Defending the liberal tradition in history, science, and philosophy.</description>
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		<title>By: Dean Esmay</title>
		<link>http://deanesmay.com/2008/05/18/netherlands-arrests-cartoonist-claims-not-to-suppress-free-expression/#comment-156542</link>
		<dc:creator>Dean Esmay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 23:41:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deanesmay.com/2008/05/18/netherlands-arrests-cartoonist-claims-not-to-suppress-free-expression/#comment-156542</guid>
		<description>Can&#039;t really disagree there. I can only point out once again that in the Netherlands, porn and drugs and prostitution all came about through the legislative process and not anything else, and they had fierce arguments over it for quite some time. I also just repeat again: their rights are geared toward &quot;freedom to criticize&quot; (i.e. go after government officials) and not so much &quot;freedom of speech,&quot; which is basically an American value.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can&#8217;t really disagree there. I can only point out once again that in the Netherlands, porn and drugs and prostitution all came about through the legislative process and not anything else, and they had fierce arguments over it for quite some time. I also just repeat again: their rights are geared toward &quot;freedom to criticize&quot; (i.e. go after government officials) and not so much &quot;freedom of speech,&quot; which is basically an American value.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary Madigan</title>
		<link>http://deanesmay.com/2008/05/18/netherlands-arrests-cartoonist-claims-not-to-suppress-free-expression/#comment-156444</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary Madigan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 14:05:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deanesmay.com/2008/05/18/netherlands-arrests-cartoonist-claims-not-to-suppress-free-expression/#comment-156444</guid>
		<description>But it is true that the anti-freedom impulse - an impulse to which the words &quot;tolerance,&quot; and &quot;diversity&quot; are attached - is remarkably similar to putting post-it notes on dung.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But it is true that the anti-freedom impulse &#8211; an impulse to which the words &quot;tolerance,&quot; and &quot;diversity&quot; are attached &#8211; is remarkably similar to putting post-it notes on dung.</p>
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		<title>By: Dean Esmay</title>
		<link>http://deanesmay.com/2008/05/18/netherlands-arrests-cartoonist-claims-not-to-suppress-free-expression/#comment-156443</link>
		<dc:creator>Dean Esmay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 13:47:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deanesmay.com/2008/05/18/netherlands-arrests-cartoonist-claims-not-to-suppress-free-expression/#comment-156443</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m often amazed at people who broadly claim that Europe is known primarily for its free expression, therefore we should be frightened if we see an instance of that supposedly changing.

It&#039;s basically bullshit through and through. But if you can get people to believe that bullshit, then, it&#039;ll be easy to scare them. Such values did not originate in Europe, and the Europeans have exactly the same struggles with them that we do, although sometimes just a little different. Am I the only one old enough to *remember* the Meese Commission? Yeesh.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m often amazed at people who broadly claim that Europe is known primarily for its free expression, therefore we should be frightened if we see an instance of that supposedly changing.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s basically bullshit through and through. But if you can get people to believe that bullshit, then, it&#8217;ll be easy to scare them. Such values did not originate in Europe, and the Europeans have exactly the same struggles with them that we do, although sometimes just a little different. Am I the only one old enough to *remember* the Meese Commission? Yeesh.</p>
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		<title>By: Snippet</title>
		<link>http://deanesmay.com/2008/05/18/netherlands-arrests-cartoonist-claims-not-to-suppress-free-expression/#comment-156440</link>
		<dc:creator>Snippet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 12:24:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deanesmay.com/2008/05/18/netherlands-arrests-cartoonist-claims-not-to-suppress-free-expression/#comment-156440</guid>
		<description>...a coward hiding behind Art as a shield

Say what you will about the guy, he&#039;s not a coward. He is living under a death sentence.

Turns out, some people want him dead. (Who? Why? Another mystery...)

What these Danish &quot;cowards&quot; have done is prove that &quot;The West&quot; has not yet been cowed to the point where it will remove one, specific religious group from the long list of groups it is willing to insult.

It has NOTHING to do with art. It is a pushback against pure, unadulterated intimidation.

The idea that raging mobs of lunatics can prevent Europeans from doing something they have long prided themselves on - goring sacred cows - (artfully or otherwise)Â is truly chilling. 

....I also strongly believe that this case illustrates that the true ideal of freedom of speech is hardly implemented in the West.

&quot;True ideals&quot; exist only in the mind.Â Â The West may not perfectly realize ANY ideal, but it does at least make the effort, as any number of people who make comfortable livings criticizing it from its own soil will be only to happy to deny.

...On the whole I think anyone who attempts to argue that the West is intrinsically defined by its freedom.

It used to be. I&#039;m starting to wonder, though. Threatening it seems to at least trigger a pretty strong anti-freedom impulse - an impulse to which the words &quot;tolerance,&quot; and &quot;diversity&quot; get attached like post-it notes on dung.

...is ignorant of the fact that speech is never and nowhere truly free.

Nothing - no thing - is ever &quot;truly&quot; (by which I mean, &quot;perfectly) ANYTHING. Reality is one imperfect thing after another. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;a coward hiding behind Art as a shield</p>
<p>Say what you will about the guy, he&#8217;s not a coward. He is living under a death sentence.</p>
<p>Turns out, some people want him dead. (Who? Why? Another mystery&#8230;)</p>
<p>What these Danish &quot;cowards&quot; have done is prove that &quot;The West&quot; has not yet been cowed to the point where it will remove one, specific religious group from the long list of groups it is willing to insult.</p>
<p>It has NOTHING to do with art. It is a pushback against pure, unadulterated intimidation.</p>
<p>The idea that raging mobs of lunatics can prevent Europeans from doing something they have long prided themselves on &#8211; goring sacred cows &#8211; (artfully or otherwise)Â is truly chilling. </p>
<p>&#8230;.I also strongly believe that this case illustrates that the true ideal of freedom of speech is hardly implemented in the West.</p>
<p>&quot;True ideals&quot; exist only in the mind.Â Â The West may not perfectly realize ANY ideal, but it does at least make the effort, as any number of people who make comfortable livings criticizing it from its own soil will be only to happy to deny.</p>
<p>&#8230;On the whole I think anyone who attempts to argue that the West is intrinsically defined by its freedom.</p>
<p>It used to be. I&#8217;m starting to wonder, though. Threatening it seems to at least trigger a pretty strong anti-freedom impulse &#8211; an impulse to which the words &quot;tolerance,&quot; and &quot;diversity&quot; get attached like post-it notes on dung.</p>
<p>&#8230;is ignorant of the fact that speech is never and nowhere truly free.</p>
<p>Nothing &#8211; no thing &#8211; is ever &quot;truly&quot; (by which I mean, &quot;perfectly) ANYTHING. Reality is one imperfect thing after another.</p>
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		<title>By: Aziz Poonawalla</title>
		<link>http://deanesmay.com/2008/05/18/netherlands-arrests-cartoonist-claims-not-to-suppress-free-expression/#comment-156398</link>
		<dc:creator>Aziz Poonawalla</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 20:53:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deanesmay.com/2008/05/18/netherlands-arrests-cartoonist-claims-not-to-suppress-free-expression/#comment-156398</guid>
		<description>As might be expected, since Willow and I are orcs of the same stripe, I also am not enamoured of hate-art to the extent that I think it should be raised to occupy the same pedestal as genuine satirical or political statements expressed in artistic means. So frankly the infamous Bomb Turban cartoon (as an example) is not something that I find particularly provocative or insightful, just a crude insult intended purely as an insult, and drawn by a coward hiding behind Art as a shield. And I will call it as such. I have more respect, in a way, for Geert Wilders who does not bother to mask his opinions behind the rubric of freedom of speech - he is quite clear that he wants freedom to be selective, and that he thinks Islam is a threat. With such people, I can deal honestly, at least.

As far as this case goes, I think however that this description of one of his works seemed intriguing enough to warrant a look:

&lt;blockquote&gt;One recent cartoon on his web site caricatured a Christian fundamentalist and Muslim fundamentalist as zombies who met at an anti-gay rally and now wished to marry.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Now, that&#039;s all kinds of awesome. On the basis of that alone I dont think that we can lump this guy into the pure jafi category. At any rate I think we do need to err on the side of free expression and be against such laws as the one under which he was arrested. Who knows what gems we may find among the muck.

I also strongly believe that this case illustrates that the true ideal of freedom of speech is hardly implemented in the West. Perhaps there is more freedom of speech, on the law books, in the West - but there are restrictions on speech that operate beyond the written law as well. On the whole I think anyone who attempts to argue that the West is intrinsically defined by its freedom, is ignorant of the fact that speech is never and nowhere truly free.

&lt;em&gt;Aziz Poonawalla&#039;s last blog post..&lt;a href=&#039;http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/city-of-brass/~3/290131160/pipes-dream.html&#039; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Pipes&#039; dream&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As might be expected, since Willow and I are orcs of the same stripe, I also am not enamoured of hate-art to the extent that I think it should be raised to occupy the same pedestal as genuine satirical or political statements expressed in artistic means. So frankly the infamous Bomb Turban cartoon (as an example) is not something that I find particularly provocative or insightful, just a crude insult intended purely as an insult, and drawn by a coward hiding behind Art as a shield. And I will call it as such. I have more respect, in a way, for Geert Wilders who does not bother to mask his opinions behind the rubric of freedom of speech &#8211; he is quite clear that he wants freedom to be selective, and that he thinks Islam is a threat. With such people, I can deal honestly, at least.</p>
<p>As far as this case goes, I think however that this description of one of his works seemed intriguing enough to warrant a look:</p>
<blockquote><p>One recent cartoon on his web site caricatured a Christian fundamentalist and Muslim fundamentalist as zombies who met at an anti-gay rally and now wished to marry.</p></blockquote>
<p>Now, that&#8217;s all kinds of awesome. On the basis of that alone I dont think that we can lump this guy into the pure jafi category. At any rate I think we do need to err on the side of free expression and be against such laws as the one under which he was arrested. Who knows what gems we may find among the muck.</p>
<p>I also strongly believe that this case illustrates that the true ideal of freedom of speech is hardly implemented in the West. Perhaps there is more freedom of speech, on the law books, in the West &#8211; but there are restrictions on speech that operate beyond the written law as well. On the whole I think anyone who attempts to argue that the West is intrinsically defined by its freedom, is ignorant of the fact that speech is never and nowhere truly free.</p>
<p><em>Aziz Poonawalla&#8217;s last blog post..<a href='http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/city-of-brass/~3/290131160/pipes-dream.html' rel="nofollow">Pipes&#8217; dream</a></em></p>
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		<title>By: jrogge</title>
		<link>http://deanesmay.com/2008/05/18/netherlands-arrests-cartoonist-claims-not-to-suppress-free-expression/#comment-156374</link>
		<dc:creator>jrogge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 16:23:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deanesmay.com/2008/05/18/netherlands-arrests-cartoonist-claims-not-to-suppress-free-expression/#comment-156374</guid>
		<description>Arrested for being racist. Interesting. I guess if he spray painted his work on wall he could be arrested for defacement of property. Otherwise, other than his employer firing him, there is no justice in this.Â There is no call for an arrest. This arrest was done out of fear, not out of respect for others. It&#039;s a show so the evil ones won&#039;t blow up the dutch. 
&quot;See look how we punished him, please don&#039;t blow us up!&quot;
&quot;Excellent, the crazy terrorist organization approves of this dutchmen, we will save you for last!&quot;
&quot;Yay!&quot;
What a bunch of pussies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Arrested for being racist. Interesting. I guess if he spray painted his work on wall he could be arrested for defacement of property. Otherwise, other than his employer firing him, there is no justice in this.Â There is no call for an arrest. This arrest was done out of fear, not out of respect for others. It&#8217;s a show so the evil ones won&#8217;t blow up the dutch.<br />
&quot;See look how we punished him, please don&#8217;t blow us up!&quot;<br />
&quot;Excellent, the crazy terrorist organization approves of this dutchmen, we will save you for last!&quot;<br />
&quot;Yay!&quot;<br />
What a bunch of pussies.</p>
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		<title>By: Elisha Feger</title>
		<link>http://deanesmay.com/2008/05/18/netherlands-arrests-cartoonist-claims-not-to-suppress-free-expression/#comment-156359</link>
		<dc:creator>Elisha Feger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 07:12:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deanesmay.com/2008/05/18/netherlands-arrests-cartoonist-claims-not-to-suppress-free-expression/#comment-156359</guid>
		<description>Did you bring your jack boots and fake moustache, Dean?

&lt;em&gt;Elisha Feger&#039;s last blog post..&lt;a href=&#039;http://demonicgerbil.livejournal.com/521926.html&#039; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Blatant Disregard for the Rules&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did you bring your jack boots and fake moustache, Dean?</p>
<p><em>Elisha Feger&#8217;s last blog post..<a href='http://demonicgerbil.livejournal.com/521926.html' rel="nofollow">Blatant Disregard for the Rules</a></em></p>
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		<title>By: Dean Esmay</title>
		<link>http://deanesmay.com/2008/05/18/netherlands-arrests-cartoonist-claims-not-to-suppress-free-expression/#comment-156356</link>
		<dc:creator>Dean Esmay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 02:41:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deanesmay.com/2008/05/18/netherlands-arrests-cartoonist-claims-not-to-suppress-free-expression/#comment-156356</guid>
		<description>Can I be the Designated Hitler next time?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can I be the Designated Hitler next time?</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Kirwin</title>
		<link>http://deanesmay.com/2008/05/18/netherlands-arrests-cartoonist-claims-not-to-suppress-free-expression/#comment-156353</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Kirwin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 00:35:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deanesmay.com/2008/05/18/netherlands-arrests-cartoonist-claims-not-to-suppress-free-expression/#comment-156353</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;But I really wish there was a clean-cut way to differentiate, because defending crap on principle is getting tiresome.

&lt;/em&gt;Goal!!!!!
Absolutely. Whether it&#039;s Larry Flynt being attacked by the Right Wing or a racist being pilloried by the Left Wing, defending these guys isn&#039;t fun. Unfortunately it has to be done, but it&#039;s a sucky job.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>But I really wish there was a clean-cut way to differentiate, because defending crap on principle is getting tiresome.</p>
<p></em>Goal!!!!!<br />
Absolutely. Whether it&#8217;s Larry Flynt being attacked by the Right Wing or a racist being pilloried by the Left Wing, defending these guys isn&#8217;t fun. Unfortunately it has to be done, but it&#8217;s a sucky job.</p>
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		<title>By: willow</title>
		<link>http://deanesmay.com/2008/05/18/netherlands-arrests-cartoonist-claims-not-to-suppress-free-expression/#comment-156352</link>
		<dc:creator>willow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 00:24:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deanesmay.com/2008/05/18/netherlands-arrests-cartoonist-claims-not-to-suppress-free-expression/#comment-156352</guid>
		<description>I think you could call me on the designated Hitler rule if I was suggesting that everyone who supported a neonazi&#039;s right to make neonazi art was therefore a neonazi, but that&#039;s not what I&#039;m saying. I&#039;m saying elevating that art (his freedom is under attack! Poor misunderstood artist!) gives that ideology a legitimacy it wouldn&#039;t otherwise have.

I feel the same way about the mouth-breathers in the Muslim world who generate antisemitic art. People who push propaganda and call it art are cut from the same cloth no matter what their ideological background. 

Ironically we&#039;re not actually arguing. I agree with you that any attempt to limit hate speech is a slippery slope. But I really wish there was a clean-cut way to differentiate, because defending crap on principle is getting tiresome.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you could call me on the designated Hitler rule if I was suggesting that everyone who supported a neonazi&#8217;s right to make neonazi art was therefore a neonazi, but that&#8217;s not what I&#8217;m saying. I&#8217;m saying elevating that art (his freedom is under attack! Poor misunderstood artist!) gives that ideology a legitimacy it wouldn&#8217;t otherwise have.</p>
<p>I feel the same way about the mouth-breathers in the Muslim world who generate antisemitic art. People who push propaganda and call it art are cut from the same cloth no matter what their ideological background. </p>
<p>Ironically we&#8217;re not actually arguing. I agree with you that any attempt to limit hate speech is a slippery slope. But I really wish there was a clean-cut way to differentiate, because defending crap on principle is getting tiresome.</p>
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