Over at Talk Islam, we have a healthy back and forth with an apostate.
Defending the liberal tradition in history, science, and philosophy.
Defending the liberal tradition in history, science, and philosophy.
Over at Talk Islam, we have a healthy back and forth with an apostate.
{ 15 comments }
Since Dean’s World seems to be the place to argue with the "Islam is evil and ugly and dangerous" people, I suppose I’ll have to point out (at risk of, once again, being accused of "attacking Christianity") that way too much ink has been spilled on apostate Muslims as if the fact that they exited the faith says something about the faith. Well maybe it does, maybe it doesn’t; the fact that people leave doesn’t, because people leave every faith (and, for that matter, every fan community, every political movement, etc.). I think people leaving should always be a call for concern and re-evaluation–"have we screwed up somewhere?"–within any intellectual, spiritual, political, whatever movement.
The habit of attempting to destroy apostates is deplorable when we see it in Muslim communities. But it’s not an impulse that’s unique to them. We need only look to the history of Europe during Christianity’s horrifically bloody Reformation for what that looks like at its worst. I’m often shocked at how many people casually refer to the Reformation as if it were merely some intellectual movement of shining enlightenment where the brutal Catholics were shown the error of their ways or something, when in fact it involved huge amounts of bloodshed, with lots of Protestants burning Catholics and vice-versa, not to mention all the Protestants busy murdering each other for apostasy.
While I don’t think Muhammed was a prophet, I know better than to sit around braying that to the world and making sweeping judgments that anything negative I find in the people who practice that faith is symptomatic of that faith. I sure notice atheists get defensive when I note the indisputable fact that officially atheist regimes murdered more people in the 20th century than any faith-based regimes. They don’t like it when I draw sweeping generalizations about their atheism that way. (Wait for it: now I’m "attacking atheism," right?)
I would hope that the discussion over at Talk Islam would make it clear to at least some folks that the Muslim community is as diverse and interesting in its views as any other, which is why I’m glad for the link.
Can I just say something?
Thanks.
I think "honor" murder is not cool.
But what I do think is really extremely cool is that, while our culture (American, Western, Judeo-Christian, Greco-Roman, whatever) has its problems in spades, "our" culture is pretty clear on the issue of whether or not strangling your daughter to death is OK.
Unless, of course, that daughter is in utero only a few weeks from delivery. Then it’s fine, it’s just a personal choice not a daughter anyway.
We also appear to live in a culture where a woman may murder her husband and get away with it by just suggesting he was mean to her. Which is a bit disturbing to some of us.
But yeah, snark aside, I’m glad to live in a culture where we don’t generally murder our children over sexual indiscretions.
Snark aside,
Don’t you find it just a little creepy to hear people say that they are unwilling to "judge" the murder of a full grown adult woman by a parent who is enraged by the fact that she was unwilling to accept the marriage arranged against her will?
The revulsion that that triggers in me is a gift my culture has given to me.
Yes, I do find it a little creepy. On the other hand, I refuse to draw sweeping judgments about entire cultures over such things, because I am, well, a progressive, and I understand that our own culture has an awful lot in its past that it shouldn’t be all that proud of, so a little humility is called for. I judge the actions, but I also judge progress toward changing attitudes about those actions. Maybe that’s hairsplitting, I don’t know; I do know that I live in a culture that within living memory (of some) found lynchings of black men just for looking wrong at white women to be occasions for public parties and family picnics. That doesn’t mean I find either acceptable or excusable or anything other than blood-chilling, though.
Don’t you find it just a little creepy to hear people say that they are unwilling to "judge" the murder
who, exactly, said this?
Willow said she won’t comment on it because it’s not part of her life experience.
As far as drawing sweeping judgments about entire cultures, I think it is fair to judge the American culture in light of the horrendous treatment it has subjected blacks to. It’s not the whole picture of course, but we can’t be let off the hook, either.
Snip, you just grossly mischaracterized willow. Try a little harder please. Can you think of an alternate interpretation of her comment, taking the context into account? you know, extend her a little benefit of the doubt, given the fact that shes proven herself to e a reasonable and intelligent and civil person? And is clearly and obviously not someone who would make any excuses EVER for honor killing?
and i strenoiusly disagree with you about American culture re: blacks also.
It is entirely possible that Willow was just sitting this one out, as it were. It is also possible that she is not prepared to unequivocally condemn this barbarity.
America’s treatment of blacks, particularly in the South, has been at times heinous. In fact, the treatment of blacks and the systematic terrorization and disenfranchisement of them after the Civil War is a dark stain on our history.
Not an excuse for contemporary underachievment, but definitely something that says some unpleasant things about America that need to be faced.
You just suggested she was creepy and unwilling to "judge" such murders. When challenged, you backed it up by suggesting we can’t know what she thinks, she may think that or may not. That’s pretty creepy all by itself. You owe her an apology.
First, let me state unequivocally that I do not judge *all* Muslims by the actions of a few. Indeed, I refuse to judge *any* culture by the actions of a few.
Now, having said that, I am also getting heartily tired of people comparing the heinous practices of a few people today with the heinous practices of people 500 years ago – and then bashing entire cultures because of it.
Those Christians that committed evil acts back in the 15 and 1600′s are *all* dead and gone and have been for centuries. We’ve moved beyond that now and I would point out that with the exceptions of a very few and scattered nutcases, there are no Christians today who would murder someone over apostasy. I believe the same to be true of most Muslims.
As to the treatment of black people in the USA, I would point out that though that treatment might be a blot on our history, that history also includes a very bloody civil war – fought mostly by white people – whose culmination spelled an end to slavery, and a civil rights movement that spelled an end to Jim Crow. In other words, we have much to be lauded for as well as condemned for. And though those lynchings might indeed still be within living memory of a few, they are just barely. The perpetrators are mostly dead now.
Can we move on please.
Let’s be clear that Christian violence–against infidels (the ancient Christian term for Muslims, Jews, and other non-Christians) and against their fellow Christians–did not end 500 years ago. In fact it did not end even 100 years ago. It went on within the United States until well into the 20th century,within the living memory of some today; the KKK was founded as a Christian organization and was busy lynching not just blacks, but Jews and Catholics, for much of the last century. There have been Christian terrorist groups in both Europe and India, and some such activity in Africa. The IRA was a Christian group that plagued the Northern Irish for some time–which was, in the end, a massive fight between Protestants and Catholics.
The funny part being, even so much as DARE to bring any of this up and you’ll get accused of "attacking Christianity." It’s ridiculous.
There is a contingent of whackjobs out there, some of them even given a bit of respectability by the mainstream press, who want you to believe Islam itself is inherently more evil than most religions (or than non-religious movements), more oppressive, more wicked, and that all Muslims must be looked upon with suspicion. This happens a lot; I know, I’ve taken a ton of fire from a lot of those nutcases. I can point you to some web sites if you don’t believe it. It’s out there, it’s corrosive, and worst of all, it’s a stab in the back to our best allies and many of our fellow Americans.
Which is why I mention these things.
There are indeed Islamic radical terrorists hellbent on horrific crimes, and some cultures dominated by Islam with some wicked practices. That’s always worth talking about, as is supporting those who want to change it.
Dean,
It looked to me – and still does – as if Willow is willfully refusing to condemn honor killing, a salient and disturbing feature of Islam (that seems to follow it to The West), which really is begging for the strongest possible condemnation.
When challenged, I acknowledged the possibility that she has simply prudently chosen not to comment on this flammable topic at this time.
It is possible, but there is some ambiguity there.
Tariq Ramadan – a supposedly liberal (thoughtful, open-minded, articulate – all that good stuff)Â Moslem has had a rather famously tough time condemning this practice unambiguously, claiming lamely that there sould a "moratorium."
Greenwell,
I agree we should pat ourselves on the back for destroying slavery ( somewhat belatedly, by Western standards), and for the civil rights advances, but keep in mind, each of these advances was vigorously opposed. The good guys won (to be heinously simplistic), but they sure didn’t have any trouble finding lots and lots of people willing to fight on the wrong side.
I am just saying that we should  refrain from acknowledging the fact that culture can have serious problems. One of "OUR" cultures serious problems has been an unusually vicious form of racism, which we are in the process of dealing with.
I hate the way racism is used as an all-purpose excuse for counterproductive behavior and attitudes, but its existence – however exploited by demogogues – is a fact of life.
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