My Hero

by Dean Esmay on July 14, 2008

in Politics

(I’ve been enjoying watching this film about the guy.)

{ 10 comments }

1 JLBussey July 14, 2008 at 9:53 am

Wow, they already took the video down?

JLBussey’s last blog post..B-25, Pacific Prowler

2 Phelps July 14, 2008 at 12:43 pm

No relation.

Phelps’s last blog post..Facepalm Duex

3 Kevin D. July 14, 2008 at 2:18 pm

Yay.  Another person telling us how evil Fred Phelps is.  Great.  Not seen that one before.  ::yawn::

Would anyone mind if I posted videos of Islamic leaders living in the West calling for its demise or would that violate editorial policy?

Sometimes, Dean, it seems you bend over backwards to bring light to the more despicable characters in Christianity but defend Islam against any kind of criticism.

If you believe Islamic terrorists are twisting the words of the Koran and refuse to give opposing opinions a voice on this blog, why do you not extend the same courtesy to your own faith?  Fred Phelps clearly does not represent mainstream Christian thought but it’s okay to post about him.

If only he were a Muslim… then he’d be protected from being posted about by editorial policy.

4 Dean Esmay July 14, 2008 at 2:32 pm

Not really a fair criticism, especially given that I regularly call for killing terrorists. But, see, we don’t live in a part of the world where people regularly want to "debate" whether Christianity is a violent and oppressive religion and who want to cherry-pick scripture to make that happen, and who call anyone who responds to their cherry-picking liars, and who constantly confront Christians to answer for every evil perpetrated in the modern world by anyone who has a connection to Christianity. So, even though I have repeatedly and regularly defended Christians and Christianity for years, including while I was an atheist, it doesn’t seem necessary to do all the time. But by all means, if you feel the need go for it. My only concern is stopping people from drawing broad, sweeping, deplorable generalizations and holding innocent people accountable for others’ actions.

Do you take personal responsibility for the KKK? Why or why not?

5 Kevin D. July 14, 2008 at 2:54 pm

Since you responded to me publicly (as you should have) I’ll repeat what I said in the conversation offline so that those following this conversation don’t think there hasn’t been additional discussion.

Perhaps my initial post was frazzled and ill spoken.  My perception is that Fred Phelps isn’t one a Christian, any Christian, should be making a spectacle of.  This is a standard I hold only Christians to.  Let whoever else say whatever they wish about the man, I have no control over that.  However, I believe Christians should exercise more restraint for two reasons.

1)  He believes Yeshua is Messiah.  That, at the very least, makes him a brother and someone to be pitied and prayed for – not pointed out for the world to see.  We take care of our own.  But even if you don’t believe he is actually a Christian…

2)  What good is being served by making an example of him?  Clear-minded people know he’s not representative of mainstream Christianity.  And those that do not know can be corrected on a case-by-case basis.  And Fred Phelps should still be pitied and prayed for because it’s abundantly clear he zealously wants to do God’s work, even if he’s going about it in a heartbreakingly bad way.

And I pray to God Muslims share this same point of view about those that commit violence in the name of Allah.  Misguided people, ultimately, are to be pitied.  Not ridiculed.

6 Phelps July 14, 2008 at 3:06 pm

AFAIK, no one in (the other) Phelps’ organization has ever participated in violence as part of their program. 
Not even pushing or shoving, much less beheading and sploding.  They’ve kept it to saying and writing disgusting things in highly inappropriate venues, and that’s all.  That alone should put them in much different spheres than islamofascists.

Phelps’s last blog post..Facepalm Duex

7 Kevin D. July 14, 2008 at 10:05 pm

That alone should put them in much different spheres than islamofascists.

True enough.

8 Dean Esmay July 14, 2008 at 10:11 pm

Kevin: I would say that it’s a good point that Phelps should be pitied and prayed for. On the other hand, if we’re to hold our fellow Christians to higher standards, then we should be willing to take public stands against terrible people who say or do bad things. I have encountered people who try to smear all of Christianity, or all of fundamentalist Christianity (of which Phelps is undeniably a member if he is Christian at all), and I always let them know that’s terribly wrong and irresponsible.

I have also had the experience of people bashing the Catholic Church for the terrorist actions of the Irish Republican Army. Which was a major terrorist group in the UK for decades, and killed a lot of people, including schoolchildren. They were fiercely Catholic, and they had at least covert support from some Catholic clergy. The only benefit there was that at least the Catholic Church has a firm hierarchy, and the bishops and the Pope were able to step in and firmly let the clergy know that under no circumstances would that be tolerated. It had at least some impact, but it’s not like they can control every nutjob Catholic, priest or no.

There’s also, to me, the issue of hypocrisy. I am sensitive on this subject because I have at various times been singled out as an "apologist for Islam" by people whose clear agenda is to smear the entire faith–smear it as not just false (I don’t consider it a smear to call a faith false) but inherently more wicked and evil than most world religions, totally incompatible with freedom, democracy, tolerance, rule of law, or any of that other good stuff. When you’ve had multiple people repeatedly say things like that to you (it happened to me again just last week, from yet another person who challenged me to "debate" him and wanted to sling a bunch of prooftexted verses at me to give him immediate answers on or I would just be proving to him that I was a fool), whose "debate" tactic is basically to throw a bunch of shit on the wall and crow when some of it sticks, you lose patience really fast. Especially when they treat you like someone who must have all the answers or you don’t know what you’re talking about.

[Rant, rant. Sorry, I should be more patient.]

I think the Pope actually sets the best example on things like this; on Islam in general, he is quite firm (and quite correct) as a man who reads Arabic just fine and has studied it extensively in the original, probably more than any Pope in history, and he’s said basically Islam is not compatible with Christianity theologically, however, Muslims simply *must*, as a Christian mandate, be treated with kindness and with a broad engagement on areas where we do have shared values (and we do have a lot of those), and engage those folks in open dialogue. That’s probably why there’s an entire Department of Islamic Studies in the Vatican, with Muslim scholars full-time in residence there (and which I can promise you has been called proof of the Pope’s impending "dhimmitude" by some chuckleheads).

Anyway, to get back to whackjobs like Fred Phelps: I struggle to know what the right attitude is beyond making sure people know that he’s about as far out on the fringe of Christian whackiness as you can possibly get. That’s why I call him things like "my hero." It’s to be humorous, not really to slander him. I think he does a good enough job of that himself. But perhaps he does deserve more charity from me and others.

9 Dean Esmay July 14, 2008 at 10:13 pm

Phelps: You’re quite correct that the WBA folks have never engaged in much violence. I’m pretty sure there’s been a brief physical scuffle here or there under obscure circumstances, but nothing open or extreme. On the other hand we’ve seen Christian terrorists bomb Hindus in India, we’ve seen Christian terrorists in the guise of the KKK lynching Catholics, Jews, and of course blacks, we’ve seen Christian terrorists bombing abortion clinics, and we’ve seen at least some people calling themselves Christians murdering homosexuals just because they were homosexuals. All these things have happened. None of this is "attacking Christianity" to bring it up, although I’m appalled at how often I’m accused of that just for acknowledging such facts for what they are: facts. If we don’t keep our own house clean and own up to the misdeeds of our coreligionists, what else are we supposed to do? Let others do our work for us?

10 Dean Esmay July 14, 2008 at 10:28 pm

By the way, I meant it, this really is a very surprisingly interesting film. I thought I knew all I needed to know about Fred Phelps but I was wrong. He’s a much more complicated man than I would have imagined. He reminds me a whole lot of Larry Flynt, oddly enough. He even makes that comparison himself, but only to chuckle at it. What’s most fascinating is that the movie is almost nothing but candid interviews with him and his family, and it’s funny but it actually makes it hard to dislike them.

I’m serious. Give it a look. As the site says:

* You will hate what he says!
* You will hate the way he says it!
* You will hate yourself for halfway agreeing with him in places!
* You will hate yourself if you miss this film!
* You will hate yourself for watching it!
* This is a film you can’t resist!
* This is a film you must not miss!

I actually agree! Well except I don’t hate myself. Except I do. I’m such a bastard.

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