Comments on: Ask Not For Whom The Mass Graves Are Dug, They Are Dug For Thee http://deanesmay.com/2008/07/31/ask-not-for-whom-the-mass-graves-are-dug-they-are-dug-for-thee/ Defending the liberal tradition in history, science, and philosophy. Wed, 23 May 2012 01:47:36 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Yu-Ain Gonnano http://deanesmay.com/2008/07/31/ask-not-for-whom-the-mass-graves-are-dug-they-are-dug-for-thee/#comment-160343 Yu-Ain Gonnano Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:09:04 +0000 http://deanesmay.com/2008/07/31/ask-not-for-whom-the-mass-graves-are-dug-they-are-dug-for-thee/#comment-160343 <em>Was the establishment and defense of human rights and democracy in the US South worth the price? </em>Oh come on, if the slaves had wanted freedom, they would have fought for it themselves.  That they didn't suggests they liked living in slavery. </sarcasm*> *God, I loath myself for even being able to type such philisophical drivel.  I couldn't imagine actually believing any of that shit. Was the establishment and defense of human rights and democracy in the US South worth the price?

Oh come on, if the slaves had wanted freedom, they would have fought for it themselves.  That they didn’t suggests they liked living in slavery. </sarcasm*>

*God, I loath myself for even being able to type such philisophical drivel.  I couldn’t imagine actually believing any of that shit.

]]> By: jaymaster http://deanesmay.com/2008/07/31/ask-not-for-whom-the-mass-graves-are-dug-they-are-dug-for-thee/#comment-160330 jaymaster Fri, 01 Aug 2008 02:15:23 +0000 http://deanesmay.com/2008/07/31/ask-not-for-whom-the-mass-graves-are-dug-they-are-dug-for-thee/#comment-160330 I’ve got a few more questions.  Was the establishment and defense of human rights and democracy in the US South worth the price?  Was the establishment and defense of human rights and democracy in Great Britain, France, Italy, Germany, and various other European nations worth the price?  Of one world war? Of two?  Was the establishment and defense of human rights and democracy in Japan, South Korea, and Vietnam worth the price?  OK, trick question there. We gave up before we finished the job in Vietnam.  But Japan and Korea still count.  Was the establishment and defense of human rights and democracy in Lebanon worth the cost?  (oops, we gave up there too)  Was the establishment and defense of human rights and democracy in Israel worth the cost?   I’ve got a few more questions.

 Was the establishment and defense of human rights and democracy in the US South worth the price?

 Was the establishment and defense of human rights and democracy in Great Britain, France, Italy, Germany, and various other European nations worth the price?  Of one world war? Of two?

 Was the establishment and defense of human rights and democracy in Japan, South Korea, and Vietnam worth the price?  OK, trick question there. We gave up before we finished the job in Vietnam.  But Japan and Korea still count.

 Was the establishment and defense of human rights and democracy in Lebanon worth the cost?  (oops, we gave up there too)

 Was the establishment and defense of human rights and democracy in Israel worth the cost?  

]]> By: Phelps http://deanesmay.com/2008/07/31/ask-not-for-whom-the-mass-graves-are-dug-they-are-dug-for-thee/#comment-160315 Phelps Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:31:50 +0000 http://deanesmay.com/2008/07/31/ask-not-for-whom-the-mass-graves-are-dug-they-are-dug-for-thee/#comment-160315 As I have said for a while, "I cannot be free if you are not free." As I have said for a while, "I cannot be free if you are not free."

]]> By: Dave Price http://deanesmay.com/2008/07/31/ask-not-for-whom-the-mass-graves-are-dug-they-are-dug-for-thee/#comment-160314 Dave Price Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:24:17 +0000 http://deanesmay.com/2008/07/31/ask-not-for-whom-the-mass-graves-are-dug-they-are-dug-for-thee/#comment-160314 Great points Yu-Ain.<strong> </strong> Great points Yu-Ain.

]]> By: Paul S. http://deanesmay.com/2008/07/31/ask-not-for-whom-the-mass-graves-are-dug-they-are-dug-for-thee/#comment-160311 Paul S. Thu, 31 Jul 2008 18:49:43 +0000 http://deanesmay.com/2008/07/31/ask-not-for-whom-the-mass-graves-are-dug-they-are-dug-for-thee/#comment-160311 It's odd too, that the nativist Libertarians believe that these rights should extend to any immigrant (legal or not) who can manage to make it across an arbitrarily drawn border, but beyond that border?  Of course not! Why such magic respect for humans who happen to be born (or even "lucky" enough to float) here, but such indifference to those on the outside? It’s odd too, that the nativist Libertarians believe that these rights should extend to any immigrant (legal or not) who can manage to make it across an arbitrarily drawn border, but beyond that border?  Of course not!

Why such magic respect for humans who happen to be born (or even "lucky" enough to float) here, but such indifference to those on the outside?

]]> By: Yu-Ain Gonnano http://deanesmay.com/2008/07/31/ask-not-for-whom-the-mass-graves-are-dug-they-are-dug-for-thee/#comment-160310 Yu-Ain Gonnano Thu, 31 Jul 2008 18:31:29 +0000 http://deanesmay.com/2008/07/31/ask-not-for-whom-the-mass-graves-are-dug-they-are-dug-for-thee/#comment-160310 That's one of the fundamental paradoxes of (L/l)ibertarianism, Phelps:  The strength of any <strong>individual's</strong> rights is directly proportional to the size of the <strong>group</strong> willing to defend them. That is to say, individual rights do not, for all practical purposes, exist in absence of the collective.  If the Iraqis only have the rights they themselves can secure through the force of arms, then by what basis does a Virginian fight for the rights of Arizonans?  Shouldn't Arizonans have only the rights they themselves can secure? By what basis do people from Nashville fight for the rights of people in Memphis?  Shouldn't Memphians have only the rights they themselves can secure? By what basis does a neighbor try to protect the rights of his neighbor.  Shouldn't that person only have the rights they themselves can secure? If each individual had to secure his own rights, then he doesn't really have any.  He merely possesses the ability to do/have something or he doesn't.  He doesn't "own" his car.  He merely is in possession of a car until someone who can project more force than he (whether by himself or by hiring others) takes the car from him. This is not liberty.  It is anarchy: the rule of the sword, where you only have the rights the guy with the biggest sword allows you to have. If you are to have rights, they must be protected by others outside of the group being denied them. That’s one of the fundamental paradoxes of (L/l)ibertarianism, Phelps:  The strength of any individual’s rights is directly proportional to the size of the group willing to defend them. That is to say, individual rights do not, for all practical purposes, exist in absence of the collective. 

If the Iraqis only have the rights they themselves can secure through the force of arms, then by what basis does a Virginian fight for the rights of Arizonans?  Shouldn’t Arizonans have only the rights they themselves can secure? By what basis do people from Nashville fight for the rights of people in Memphis?  Shouldn’t Memphians have only the rights they themselves can secure? By what basis does a neighbor try to protect the rights of his neighbor.  Shouldn’t that person only have the rights they themselves can secure?

If each individual had to secure his own rights, then he doesn’t really have any.  He merely possesses the ability to do/have something or he doesn’t.  He doesn’t "own" his car.  He merely is in possession of a car until someone who can project more force than he (whether by himself or by hiring others) takes the car from him.

This is not liberty.  It is anarchy: the rule of the sword, where you only have the rights the guy with the biggest sword allows you to have.

If you are to have rights, they must be protected by others outside of the group being denied them.

]]> By: Phelps http://deanesmay.com/2008/07/31/ask-not-for-whom-the-mass-graves-are-dug-they-are-dug-for-thee/#comment-160304 Phelps Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:37:22 +0000 http://deanesmay.com/2008/07/31/ask-not-for-whom-the-mass-graves-are-dug-they-are-dug-for-thee/#comment-160304 I have been, since 2002, and continue to be astonished by other libertarians who seem to think that freedom is an American right, not a human right.  They are perfectly willing to spend trillions here on questions like, "how informed of your rights do you have to be before you can be convicted of a murder you actually committed," while they are unwilling to spend a single cent on questions like, "should you be tortured, raped, and murdered, all on videotape, because the spawn of the thug that runs your country liked the way you looked walking down the street?" I have been, since 2002, and continue to be astonished by other libertarians who seem to think that freedom is an American right, not a human right.  They are perfectly willing to spend trillions here on questions like, "how informed of your rights do you have to be before you can be convicted of a murder you actually committed," while they are unwilling to spend a single cent on questions like, "should you be tortured, raped, and murdered, all on videotape, because the spawn of the thug that runs your country liked the way you looked walking down the street?"

]]>