The short answer is yeah, pretty much:
In fact, Obama had told the Iraqis that they should not rush through a “Strategic Framework Agreement†governing the future of US forces until after President George W. Bush leaves office, [Obama’s national security spokeswoman Wendy Morigi] said.
Not that anyone will care, but technically this is a felony.
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They could have gone after Congressman Charlie Wilson too. I think he even admitted as such. I’m glad they didn’t. (And if you haven’t seen Charlie Wilson’s War yet, please go out and rent it RIGHT NOW.)
Is this a little more extreme? Depends on your frame of reference. It’s not new. Jimmy Carter pulled a lot of that crap on President Clinton. It’s arguably what Oliver North was really guilty of, for a cause every bit as noble as what Charlie Wilson did, although North’s always maintained that he was authorized, or at least had every reason to believe he was.
Dave, this does indeed look bad; but do we have more than one source for the story yet? Let’s not go all Dan Rather here. There’s not even a direct quote here; and there’s a grey area between "recommending" and "negotiating".
Seriously bad judgment on Senator Obama’s part? Yeah, I think so. Felony violation of the Logan Act? I’ll need more convincing.
This has been percolating on the righty blogs for a few days now. Whether this is an actual violation of the Logan Act or not, everyone knows that Obama will not get called on it.
If this is true, the bigger question is whether the McCain camp can use this to demonstrate what a rank political opportunist Obama is. Basically this is literally playing with human lives in order to score political points.
But this is likely to have about as much interest in the media as Obama’s acknowledged two-faced approach to NAFTA where he publicly opposed it while privately sending surrogates to Canada to tell them that they should ignore Obama’s political comments since that was just to get elected.
Bottom line, nobody really seems to care about this sort of thing.
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Do we ever enforce the Logan Act? If not, we probably should repeal it. Having a felony-level criminal law of which we routinely tolerate public violations is pinning a “Kick Me” sign on the backside of the Majesty of the Law.
This claim is from Amir Taher, who is an incredibly unreliable source. He is the one responsible for the claim that the Iranian parliament passed a law that required separate dress codes for religious minorities, Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians, to make them identifiable in public. This claim was completely fabricated.
I would not take anything he says seriously.
This claim is from Amir Taher, who is an incredibly unreliable source.
Mike,
The quote in Dave’s post was from the Obama campaign which confirms what Taher said. Note the reference to Obama’s national security spokeswoman…
In fact, Obama had told the Iraqis that they should not rush through a “Strategic Framework Agreement†governing the future of US forces until after President George W. Bush leaves office, [Obama’s national security spokeswoman Wendy Morigi] said.
I posted a comment, but it hasn’t appeared and I get a "repeat post" message when I try to repost…
Once again…..
This claim is from Amir Taher, who is an incredibly unreliable source.
Mike,
The quote in Dave’s post was from the Obama campaign which confirms what Taher said. Note the reference to Obama’s national security spokeswoman…
In fact, Obama had told the Iraqis that they should not rush through a “Strategic Framework Agreement†governing the future of US forces until after President George W. Bush leaves office, [Obama’s national security spokeswoman Wendy Morigi] said.
Mikeca,
The problem is that Obama’s spokesperson seems to confirm this, thought with a different spin and some gratuitous McCain bashing.
Martin/mikeca,
Did you RTFA? The Obama campaign confirmed it. That’s a statement right from them.
I don’t think Obama should be prosecuted for it, just publicly reviled. Wilson was an idealist, Obama wanted to leave Iraq in the middle of a civil war between extremists.
He is the one responsible for the claim that the Iranian parliament passed a law that required separate dress codes for religious minorities, Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians, to make them identifiable in public. This claim was completely fabricated.
The claim was completely accurate, if imprecise. The sumptuary law was definitely passed and they had adjourned to decide how it would be enforced. Those measures were discussed as means of enforcement, according to Iranian exiles.
It was also clearly NOT a fabrication. Taheri even gave his sources.
I would not take any lefty smears against Taheri seriously.
There has never been a recorded prosecution or conviction regarding the Logan Act. If Bush wants to be the first President to use it to prosecute someone on top of everything else controversial then by all means. He’s on a roll why stop there?
Actually, Obama said this because of the fact that if Bush actually gets a commitment to pull out it takes all the wind out of his campaign and he is left with little to nothing to stand on. It would be hilarious if Bush actually does this.
Dave:
If true, Obama seems to have been advocating leaving Iraq in a state of relative unrest with the consequent loss of innocent lives just long enough so that he could gain the political advantage from it necessary to win the election.
Do I believe this?
Unfortunately I sort of do. I think it’s a bit more complicated than Obama thinking "hey, if Bush pulls out too soon, it’s gonna cost me some votes." I’d like to think there were some more principled reasons for the request. Unfortunately since Obama has been pursuing just this sort of early withdrawal of troops it seems difficult to find the principle he is hanging his request on if it wasn’t "that will get me more votes."
I’m really trying to give Obama the benefit of the doubt on this one. I mean I do think he is an out-of-touch elitist with a hugely inflated opinion of himself.
But is he out of touch and egotistical enough to literally throw innocent Iraqi lives away in order to meet his political goals?
Geez, I sure hope not. I have to think not. That’s a vile, vile thing to accuse someone of.
So I’m still looking for a plausible rationale for this request.
Mikeca, surely you can find one.
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Did you RTFA? The Obama campaign confirmed it. That’s a statement right from them.
I read an AFP paraphrase…
In fact, Obama had told the Iraqis that they should not rush through a "Strategic Framework Agreement" governing the future of US forces until after President George W. Bush leaves office, she said.
…which is in no way a direct quote. Given that the media manages to mangle even direct quotes, I’m not ready to indict based on a media paraphrase.
And there’s a lot of grey area between "I gave them my recommendation" (which is a perfectly logical interpretation of the paraphrase) and "I tried to negotiate their policy to my advantage." It’s public knowledge that Senator Obama met with Iraqi leaders. It would be hopelessly naive to think he didn’t recommend courses of action when he did so.
Before I judge this, I want to hear what the Senator’s campaign actually said, not what AFP says they said.
A 200-year-old law with no prosecutions. Sounds like a dead law to me. It is always useful, though, for demagogic purposes, so if nothing else, it provides fodder for the angry hordes.
Among those alleged by various parties to have ‘violated the Logan Act’ are Richard Nixon, George McGovern, Jim Wright, Jesse Jackson, Jimmy Carter.
BTW, State Dept., the principle interpreter of the Act, says Congressmen performing congressional duties–as defined by the Congressman, of course–are not covered by the Act. [See page 12 of the 14-page PDF from Congressional Research Service.] Therefore, Obama cannot be considered in violation if he says he was just doing his job….
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Texas: I’ve mentioned this before, but obviously not everyone reads everything (which isn’t even possible for me), so, here again I will note that the spam filter often catches posts with links in them and assumes they’re spam. All that has to happen is you drop a note in the thread saying that’s happened, and I will release it if I haven’t already noticed (I try to check regularly but often forget or just don’t have time). I’m pretty sure most or all the front pagers can do it too, if they’re so inclined. It’s no problem. I wish I had time to investigate a better spam filter, but the minutes of my life are frequently given over to others.
Your comments are released. ;-)
Minor note on the thread: Er, isn’t the guy named Amir Taheri?
I don’t know if it would be wise for the McCain camp or his supporters to bring up this "violation" of the Logan Act since if they do Obama might try to have McCain removed from the ballot because John wasn’t "technically" born in the U.S.. Obama has done similar things before…
Didn’t Congress grant John McCain specific status as a citizen some years ago?
BTW, I wouldn’t expect Obama to go there with the legitimate questions about the circumstances of his OWN birth and citizenship.
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BTW, I wouldn’t expect Obama to go there with the legitimate questions about the circumstances of his OWN birth and citizenship.
The whole "not a citizen" meme is nuts, and will backfire against any campaign foolish enough to use it.
But I’ll bet Dan Rather will be foolish enough to make an exclusive last-minute report out of it regarding Senator McCain, thus sabotaging Senator Obama’s campaign. Because you see, Dan Rather is secretly Karl Rove.
(Hey, that’s about as sane as the "not a citizen" ravings…)
Martin, I agree completely. Nobody on either side should have any doubt that McCain, Palin, Obama and Biden are Americans trying to do what they think is right for America. To get caught up in trivial details of obscure citizenship laws is a waste of time and, quite frankly, once the candidates are on the ballot, that ship has sailed, that horse has left the barn, that Elvis has left the building.
But I will be interested to see if anyone outside of the campaigns tries to spring this as an "October Surprise" thing.
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Unfortunately I sort of do. I think it’s a bit more complicated than Obama thinking "hey, if Bush pulls out too soon, it’s gonna cost me some votes." I’d like to think there were some more principled reasons for the request.
The only real principled reason for this request is that Obama is going to try and get the soldiers out sooner than than the 2011 date as it was suggested in the media. If they wait until he is in office they could very well see a 2010 withdrawal. The truth of the matter is, if Bush does lock in a 2011 withdrawal date in writing, then Obama’s campaign has very little to stand on.
Bush administration and other Republicans present confirm Obama’s account and deny the Post’s interpretation:
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/undermining-mcc.html
I’m sure Price will issue a retraction any eon now.
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