At City of Brass, I discuss new revelations that no traces of the chemical irritant were found on the primary victim’s face, nor in the building, as well as the fact that police are not calling it a hate crime.
I also argue that CAIR and the ADL should be reporting hate crimes directed against both Jews and muslims. I still don’t believe that muslims face Islamophobia on the same scale as Jews face anti-Semitism, but Islamophobia is certainly real enough that it needs to be taken seriously. Common cause strengthens us all in the face of these domestic fascists.
{ 20 comments }
Mr. Poonawalla clearly needs to apologize to the makers of "Obsession: radical Islam’s war against the west" for his libelous posting and Dean needs to examine who he allows to post on his blog. Just because an act followed the release of the DVD does not mean that it was caused by the release of the DVD, anyone who argues that is a two-digit moron, and argueing that is itself a hate crime.
Consider it this way. Is the Koran responsible for 9/11? No, some psychopaths and sociopaths projected their need for slaughter onto that book.
But that is academic, we don’t even know what inspired the pepper-sprayers (if indeed there were pepper-sprayers).
One thing is clear though: Aziz has a problem with freedom of speech.
Common cause strengthens us all in eth face of these domestic fascists.
Which domestic fascists were you referring to, CAIR, the MAS (Muslim Brotherhood) or Jamaat ul-Fuqra?
Mary,
oh, snap! you got him good!
Oh, sure, that’s the only reason why I bring up Jamaat ul-Fuqra, the fascist/paramilitary organization based in the United States. To ‘get’ Aziz.
Mary, I was referring to anyone who thinks its a good idea to attack a synagogue, church, or mosque. That doesn’t include CAIR, that includes some within the Brotherhood, and it might apply to a lot of people in "Jamaat ul Fuqra". It also applies to the people who sprayed chemicals into a girl’s face in Dayton, an incident that you seem uncharacteristically unconcerned about given your usual principled and admirable hard line stance against this sort of thing.
Scott, is it that hard to write your own sentences for yourself rather than copy and paste them verbatim from other people? I agree that Robert Spencer is an intelligent, charming, and eloquent man. But transcribing his words doesn’t magically grant you those qualities. He had to work hard to develop those skills.
I’ve hosted the trailer for Obsession and the Fitna video at my blog in the interest of free speech. I supported the publication of Jewel of Medina, and I’ve published images and artwork of the prophet Mohammed on my blog. What have YOU done for free speech lately? besides plagiarizing smarter people than yourself?
Aziz,
I think Scott has a point though. I have personally never heard of this DVD, but blaming it for this despicable incident (especially in the pejorative manner that you do i.e. entrenched prejudice, suspending of common sense, etc. translation – only a bigot or idiot could disagree with you) seems a bit much.Â
I understand that you are emotional over this, but I think you give the individuals a bit of a pass, in the same way that lame parents want to blame television or video games for their children’s outrageous behavior.
Paul, I actually thought quite a bit about this. I am less emotional about this incident than i was when my own mosque was vandalized last year in Houston, I assure you. I do make a case for why the Obsession DVD is relevant at my blog and I invite you to read it and consider my argument there. I am not simply making a blanket assertion but I do have some rationale, including the objective fact that there are fewer hate crimes against muslims than there are against the Jewish community (which actually supports my contention). At any rate I accept that you may disagree after reading my explanantion, but I hope you will agree that it is a reasoned one and not some knee jerk reaction.
Mary,
then what, exactly, was the purpose of your comment? to point out that the names of the perpetrators of the Dayton attack don’t comprise an exhaustive list of domestic terrorists? inconceivable!
Actually I am quite enthusiastic about the proposal I made in my post, that CAIR and the ADL be encouraged to start compiling hate crime statistics against both jews and muslims. I plan to contact my local CAIR chapter and statr agitating for it and offer my assistance.
It also applies to the people who sprayed chemicals into a girl’s face in Dayton, an incident that you seem uncharacteristically unconcerned about given your usual principled and admirable hard line stance against this sort of thing.
Aziz, your post was about the fact that the police did not find evidence of pepper spray or a hate crime. They also did not find any connection to any group or to any DVDs.
According to reports, the police tested for about "130 to 140 chemicals, including pepper spray" and the tests came back negative.
I don’t know what group could have been involved, I don’t even know if there was a group involved.
I do know that Jamaat ul-Fuqra has a compound in upstate New York in a town called Islamberg, which is not too far from the summer camp my daughter went to a few years ago.
I didn’t know about Islamberg at the time. It would have been nice to know.
Here’s a report about them, with pictures.
Islamberg is not as benign as a Buddhist monastery or a Carmelite convent. Nearly every weekend, neighbors hear sounds of gunfire. Some, including a combat veteran of the Vietnam War, have heard the bang of small explosives. None of the neighbors wished to be identified for fear of "retaliation." "We don’t even dare to slow down when we drive by," one resident said. "They own the mountain and they know it and there is nothing we can do about it but move, and we can’t even do that. Who wants to buy a property near that?"
If we’re going to be using this public forum to warn people about fascists in their midsts, it would be a good idea to describe groups whose existence is confirmed.
Interesting about Islamberg. will look into it further.
My post, FWW, is not just "about" the finidng sby the police, but actually discusses them in context, and I think i make a pretty good case for why these new details do not undermine the case, only the search for the perpetrators.
Pepper spray dissipates with 20 minutes, whihc is how long it took for the hazmat team to arrive. The police have ruled out classifying the crime as a hate crime, which means that they do not have any evidence (like graffiti saying go home rghead, etc), but the specifict of the target obviously does mean that the targets were chosen because they were muslim. Whether or not it s formally lebeled a hate crime is not the point.
Finally, the link to Obsession is strong because of the timing and because attacks on mosques are not "routine".
Please do read my post and if you disagree with details I raise I am glad to hear it, but by no means is this case "debunked" as some are already claiming.
Mary, regarding Islamberg, I think this report by Fox News is far more balanced than your "Islam Watch" link. Far from being som mysterious group on the hill, the Islamberg people are participants in their local community, and have jointly hosted thanksgiving dinners, invited local residents for sport hunting on the hill, and even pitched in during a flood to help the locals. Read Fox news’s investigation and you see a far different picture emerge than what the one-sided account in your link portrays. One might refer to Islam Watch as "biased" in that regard.
Aziz,
Umm, I did read your link and in fact that is where my objection came from as I thought was made obvious by what I put in parantheses. I have to wonder if you actually read my comment all that carefully, but I will rehash.
Here is a quote from your post, linking the DVD release to the act:
The timing was too convenient to be coincidental, and only someone with deeply-entrenched prejudice could possibly suspend their common sense enough to argue otherwise.
And here is how I attempted to paraphrase it in my above comment:
 (especially in the pejorative manner that you do i.e. entrenched prejudice, suspending of common sense, etc. translation – only a bigot or idiot could disagree with you)
You may make a reasonable point that the two might be linked, but what I find telling is that you believe that anyone who does not see it your way is clearly prejudiced and lacking in common sense. So, my comment still stands.Â
Aziz, the Fox report you linked to was inconclusive. It said:
But plenty of questions remain: How close is Islamberg to Gilani? How does it accept, reject or interpret the portions of his writings that espouse violence?
Does the community send people overseas or to other camps for training? And, if it does, exacly what kind of training? How does the group see its relationship to the local community, and does it plan to do anything to improve it? Islamberg’s elders refused a request to visit with them and tour the compound, citing a recent spate of negative publicity. For now, it remains an enigma in the mountains.
Speaking of enigmas, you say: "…the link to Obsession is strong because of the timing and because attacks on mosques are not "routine".
The ‘timing’ includes a number of significant events in the community – the election, hurricane season, the real-estate crisis, the general economy, cooler weather, Olympic gymnasts coming to town, advertising makeup. A connection between any or all of them could be made to a group whose existence still has not been proven.
Paul, I apologise, I didnt make the connection between your phrase and my own words, though in hindsight it is obvious. I’m sorry. I d take a aggresive position on the common sense link, because I am partly responding to people who argue that teh new facts actually debunk whether anything took place at all. I will admit here in polite, not hostile, company that yes you might be reasonably skeptical that the Obsession DVD was a factor, but I still believe that such skepticism does run counter to common sense. You’re not a bigot or a fool, but you aren’t treating the issue with the level fo seriousness it deserves, in terms of creating an "atmosphere of hate". Perform a thought experiment – suppose millions of copies of the Protocols of Zion were mailed out to a region of the country, and then the next week there was an attack on a synagigue. Wouldn’t you be inclined to at least acknowledge that Obsession may have played a role? If I will acknowledge that it may not have, a reasonable compromise is to believe it may. The deniers of the incident argue that it unequivocally did NOT – which is itself an impossible position to prove.
Mary, you are very selective in your bouts of skepticism. You are willing to assign great importance to tangential "connections" between people and terrorists and organizations on the slenderest of associative reeds, and you’d be out front marching about the muslim terror masters if my thouhgt experiment above in my reply to Paul were to come to pass. But when the targets of hate are muslims, your evidence threshold suddenly becomes quite rigorous.
And the Fox report link to is indeed inconclusive. Unlike the Islam Watch report which was very conclusive indeed. You are willing to uncritically accept the latter’s conclusions because it fits yoru narrative neatly, but the very posibility that Islamerg is harmless is rejected out of hand. I’ll takethe word of people who actually live nearby to Islamberg (quoted by Fox) rather than your inrepid solo journalist out to scoop a terror compound in our midst (IW) any day. Your standards may differ, thats your prerogative.
Aziz,
Fair enough. And for the record, I did say that "you make a reasonable point that the two might be linked."
In your thought experiment, you talk of millions of copies being mailed and an attack. (I’ll assume one attack is implied since the Dayton incident is one attack we are currently discussing.) Might the mailings have played a role? Sure, it’s possible, but what about the other 999,999 people who did not act? My point is that no previously civilized and rational person would see the DVD and decide that spraying pepper spray in the eyes of an innocent child is suddenly the proper thing to do.Â
Sure, the DVD influences the dumbasses in the same way that seeing a guy wearing a turban can set off the same dumbasses. So, I am as reluctant to blame the DVD as I am to blame a guy walking the street in a turban and would rather focus blame and punishment fully on said dumbasses.
I’m not really interested in this debate anymore, because some people simply cannot see their own paranoid ignorance when it comes to Islam, nor why it is detrimental to the war on terror (even though it is–very much so). But I’m curious as to how someone thinks that criticizing a movie as spreading irrational, ll-informed paranoia (which this stupid film does) equates to opposing free speech.
Tell me, if I said that a KKK propaganda film encouraged violent incidents against the groups (catholics, blacks, and jews) that the KKK most hates, would this indicate that I oppose free speech?
Anyway, I’m busy packing my mom, so have fun with the discussion guys. :-)
Comments on this entry are closed.