I do generally agree that watching a man whom I consider to be unusually honest, idea-oriented, kind, and straightforward for a politician be crapped on for 8 years has been painful and caused a lot of resentment in me as well. Although I try to be philosophical about these things, and will try pretty hard not to be as nasty to a President Obama as I’ve seen the shrieking Bush haters be toward Bush. We’ll see what we see I guess. The cold anger I felt in 2004 has more or less mellowed, and while I’m still not happy with Obama or his party these are legitimate people with a legitimate right to put forward their candidate and try to win an election based on their beliefs.
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Dean:
It is my opinion that Obama will get a much easier ride than Bush did, mostly because conservatives are generally more civil than liberals are, but also because conservatives don’t look to government as the solution to all of our problems and as such don’t take elections nearly as personally as liberals do.
Unfortunately I think this works against conservatives. Liberals have turned their childish, vicious Bush hatred into electoral success, and as much as a lot of conservatives would like to see the Right reverse the situation and repay the Left, I just don’t see conservatives behaving in the same childish, thuggish manner as liberals have come to treat as "normal" politics.
So as I said, Obama is likely to get a free pass from the Right, at least when compared to the treatment Bush has received.
Just my opinion, but I think the general incivility and intolerance of the Left has been well documented by others.
CosmicConservative’s last blog post..Cardinals outlast Cowboys?
I have gotten really tired of all the rancor myself. What I think really drives the lefties crazy is that nothing seems to bother Bush. They call him Hitler – no response. That say he’s stupid and doesn’t speak well – he just keeps on saying nu-cue-lar. They say he practices "cowboy diplomacy" – he still goes to Crawford.
I will also have a very hard time not being nasty to Obama, but I probably won’t because that’s not "how I roll".
Dunno man, an awful lot of of what I’ve heard from "conservative" talk radio is pretty poisonous these days. and some of it is attacking stuff from Obama that they’d be vigorously defending Obama for if he were a conservative. I assume that’ll kick into high gear once he’s done two or three things they don’t like as Prez. Maybe I’m wrong, I’d like to be…
Dean:
Talk Radio is not representative of conservatism. What I’m talking about is the reaction of "mainstream liberals" vs. "mainstream conservatives". In other words, if you think a group of Obama supporters walking through Colorado Springs is going to get flipped off, yelled at, cussed at and generally treated like human refuse, which is how a McCain/Palin group was treated in New York City, then perhaps you can say that you expect the dialogue to shift to where conservatives are a nasty and hateful as liberals.
Frankly, I just don’t see that. Obama/Biden supporters walking through Colorado Springs will be treated with respect. Liberal speakers at universities will NOT be shouted off the stage. And THAT’s the difference I’m talking about.
CosmicConservative’s last blog post..Cardinals outlast Cowboys?
I also predict you won’t see stories about conservatives flocking to psychiatrists to deal with their deep depression over their man losing. You won’t see stories about conservative celebrities crying about how they will have to leave the country due to their deep depression over the political situation.
Etc. etc. etc..
The two sides are simply not comparable in terms of their general levels of maturity and coping skills.
Let’s revisit this topic in February and see if my predictions prove true.
By the way “Nu-cu-lar” is an acceptable pronunciation for “nuclear” according to the dictionary. It’s a regional variation that is no less “odd” or “illiterate” than “Cuber” for “Cuba”. But you don’t see conservatives calling Kennedy or Kerry “ignoramuses” for that regional variation.
Of course that’s because conservatives call Kennedy and Kerry “ignoramuses” for more compelling reasons…
CosmicConservative’s last blog post..Cardinals outlast Cowboys?
Dean,
Who on "conservative" talk radio are you listening to specifically? What have they said specifically? Short of Michael Savage I can’t think of a single conservative talker that even gets within the same zip code as the bile spewed on the left hourly.
Rush doesn’t get hateful. Hannity doesn’t get hateful. Prager doesn’t get hateful. O’Reilly doesn’t get hateful. Who are you listening to?
I’m trying to think who you could be listening to in Michigan. O’Reilly isn’t on until around 11PM so I’m pretty sure you’re not listening to him. Prager I don’t think is on in Michigan. Rush and Hannity are. There’s also Mark Levin but I’ve never listened to him.
So, as far as I can figure out you have to be talking about Rush and Hannity. Maybe we hear different things when listening to them. I dunno.
I don’t listen to a lot of talk radio, but my friends and family do and sometimes I do. I agree with Kevin, I don’t hear nearly the sort of deranged vitriol from even the most conservative talk radio, mostly I hear a lot of snarkiness, not pure bile.
I don’t care much for the likes of Ann Coulter or Michael Savage (but I don’t consider Savage to be a conservative, he’s something else). Laura Ingraham sounds too much like a privileged sorority social climber for my taste, but she’s not generally nasty. Hannity is generally positive, but he can get in the mud on occasion. Rush is rarely nasty, but he gets his digs in.
But when I compare that to what I hear from Randi Rhodes or her ilk, there is no comparison. Those folks seriously need psychological help.
CosmicConservative’s last blog post..Cardinals outlast Cowboys?
I also still haven’t entirely gotten over you guys’ completely frenzied overreaction when the Sargeant at Arms of the congress suggested that Speaker Pelosi’s district was massively further away from Washington D.C. than Speaker Hastert’s (which of course it is) and that for security purposes she should probably have use of one of the bigger planes available out of Andrews AFB so it could fly non-stop if needed and could be in instant communication with Washington if the worst happened and the 3rd person in line to the Presidency suddenly became President in the blink of an eye.
You guys really looked bad on that one. I mean, really, really, REALLY bad. All your talk about being conservative and serious about security and protection went out the window and instead you guys went with the completely nasty insinuations about her personal motives and character instead, saying she wanted to be Queen and was taking on airs and “demanding her own plane” (which of course she was not).
When almost all those accusations turned out to be based on the thinnest of evidence and to not particularly substantive, the entire thing was quietly dropped from the discussion. No apologies, no retractions. It’s as if it never happened, and conservatives never viciously attacked the Speaker over nothing.
But you guys did.
Dean:
If you seriously think "our" reaction over Pelosi’s airplane even REMOTELY compares to the general Left’s comparisons of Bush to Hitler, the "Bush Lied and People Died" meme and the "illegal war", "Halliburton cronies" etc…
Well, I don’t know what to say. It sort of seems like there’s this swimming pool full of phlegm on one side and you point to a bit of spit on the sidewalk on other side and say "See, it’s the same thing."
I mean, seriously, get real man. Sure, I don’t like the spit on the sidewalk either… but…
To put it in perspective Dean… show me the conservative who said “Pelosi wants a bigger plane!? See, she’s just like HITLER MAN!!!”
Oh, I’m not sure I was one who got all upset over Pelosi’s plane thing. I probably called her on the apparent hypocrisy of it, but I don’t recall being foaming at the mouth upset over it.
CosmicConservative’s last blog post..Cardinals outlast Cowboys?
I’m with CC. A plane is the best you got, Dean? Really? And you’re still upset about it?
I have no recollection of that particular event but get over it.
If you equate bitching about a plane to, "No blood for oil," "Bush Lied People Die," "We’re targeting civilians," "Bush hates black people," and on and on, you really need to recheck your priorities.
And you still haven’t given me specific conservative talk radio host names or specific quotes. I’m really interested in who is saying this stuff you say they are.
Kevin,
I can name some. The aforementioned Michael Savage. Mark Levin, who pollutes WJR. Sean Hannity on a bad day can cross the line. Glenn Beck is out there. And Neal Boortz is a clueless ass.
Just sounds to me you don’t like conservative talk radio.
I remember the plane thing very well indeed, and I will NOT get over it given how many conservatives, including regular commenters on this very blog, were fulminating about how Pelosi was "demanding her own plane." It was total bullshit.
As for specific names: I’m not familiar with Glenn Beck, but I can go with Martin’s list otherwise. I’ll throw in Ann Coulter.
You want specific things? This week driving across country I heard a conservative talk radio guy openly comparing Obama to Adolph Hitler, in a very serious way. I’m hearing endlessly how people should be "scared" of Obama because of how he’ll turn this into a hard-left socialist state. They’ve been actually telling people they should be "scared" — direct quote — of Obama, and the Nazi comparisons are flying out of multiple mouths.
If you want to say that’s not you or the people you read or listen to, that’s just fine, but don’t try to sell me the bunk that the right can’t be just as nasty and irrational as the left, because it most certainly can be.
Oh, and while it’s certainly a blast from the past, let’s not forget my favorite web site, the Clinton Body Count, maintained by hard-right goofballs who want to convince us that the Clinton administration wasn’t just corrupt in some areas and that Bill Clinton had a problem being entirely truthful and consistent: no, he was in the habit of murdering his political opponents and any friends that got in his and his wife’s way. Including even one of his own cabinet secretaries.
Now we have some Bush supporters openly promising to go out of their way to be as nasty and antagonistic as possible to a President Obama, which is exactly what I linked on the front page. So please, don’t try to sell me on the notion that the Right won’t explode into extreme negativity over a President Obama. Many of them obviously will.
Do you think conservatives are, in general, simply superior human beings to liberals/leftists? Or what?
Yep, it’s all those evil reich wing rethuglican dancing lapdog monkeys fault… Maybe it’s just me, but I haven’t seen any coordinated t-shirt displays with "Obama is a dick" like… anywhere. I do get a healthy dose of RAGE AGAINST THE REPUBLICANS every day at work though.
Elisha Feger’s last blog post..Beautiful
Martin,
Do you have a link to Levin saying something akin to "Pelosi is Hilter"? He posts all his shows online, so I would like to hear it.Â
TexasAg03,
No link. I don’t read Mr. Levin’s stuff, I just hear it on the radio some nights. If you like it, more power to you, but he clearly crosses the civility line on an ongoing basis. It’s his schtick.
And before you assume I don’t know what I’m talking about — the clear implication of your comment — realize that I spend most of my drive time listening to and enjoying and agreeing with conservative talk radio. I even enjoy Michael Savage, when he’s not on a rant, because I think he’s the finest story teller in radio today. But when Mark Levin comes on, I know it’ll be less than 15 minutes before he says something so foul, I have to change the station — even if that means NPR.
Elisha,
How about the Obama chimpanzee shirt? That one might yet make me vote for Senator Obama out of spite.
Martin,
I just know I have never heard him say something similar to "Bush is Hitler". Maybe he has, but I’ve never heard it and maybe my civility line is a little further up the "meanness" chart.
It’s not fair, of course, to compare the irrational rage at Pelosi to the irrational rage at the President, but only because fewer people know who the hell she is. I just used it as one example among many of "conservatives" throwing hissy fits and making irrational attacks in recent years (and here is the Dean’s World thread that some of you even participated in, in case you’ve forgotten). Whoever is President is just the bigger target no matter what for the foaming-at-the-mouth left or right.
You haven’t seen the "Fuck Obama" shirts? Well I suspect they’ll be more popular if he’s actually elected and probably well before he’s even sworn into office, but you can start here and here and here.
Enough. Are you guys really, truly defending the proposition that the right isn’t or can’t be irrational and nasty? Really?!? Hell, some of you were acknowledging it to be true not very long ago, now you’re mad at me for still saying it’s true?
How soon we forget. Get a Democrat in office and some on the right come unglued. The same is true when you get a Republican in office. I agree that with Bush it’s been worse than I can ever recall, but I can’t say my recollection is perfect and there was an AWFUL lot of nastiness the last time we had a Dem in office.
Soon as you find 4 ‘mainstream’ people that show up to an Obama rally wearing those shirts, let me know Martin.
Elisha Feger’s last blog post..Beautiful
Elisha,
Right after you demonstrate that the 4 idiots in that picture are mainstream, you’ve got it!
Once the mainstream media gets around to reporting it and we learn who they are, I will! :p
Elisha Feger’s last blog post..Beautiful
Seriously… Morons on the left equal the whole left, but morons on the right equal a few fringe nobodies? This is exactly the sort of "logic" the left has been using to excuse their morons for the past eight years while attacking the right, only it’s the mirror image. I denounced this "logic" from the left, and I’m damn well going to denounce it from the right. Just because I agree with the right more doesn’t give them a pass to be morons.
(I think they’re all morons.)
Elisha Feger’s last blog post..Beautiful
Anybody can be irrational. On either side of the aisle. However, the left has the lion share by far. And the fact that a Republican is in office has nothing to do with it. The media is saturated with hateful leftists. News, television, film, print – you can’t get away from it. The only form a media the right has a firm grasp on is talk radio.
And this is why you see the left pushing the Fairness Doctrine on talk. You’ll notice Democrats never bring it up in connection to television, film, print, or news. It’s always talk radio.
So, you’ll forgive me if I don’t foam at the mouth in anger over a damned plane. I happen to be worrying about a larger problem: The leftist monopoly on free speech.
But, hey, we all have priorities. I care about the 1st Amendment, you care about Pelosi’s air plane.
There were people calling for investigations on this for crying out loud, even though the White House itself said the story was, and I quote, "silly."
Don’t tell me this kind of irresponsible irrationality doesn’t exist on the right, and don’t try to tell me that when it’s on the left it’s mainstream and when it’s on the right it’s just a handful of nutjobs. That handful of nutjobs runs things like WorldNet Daily and The American Spectator, and they’re already sharpening their knives. Bet on it. I know, I remember the 1990s very well, as I considered myself a conservative at that time and I loved all that stuff because I thought it was funny and fun. I’m a little more serious on my politics now and a lot of it embarrasses me that I was ever a part of it–and I won’t be again, whether it’s on the left or the right.
Yeah, I care about irrational foaming political nutjobs, and you care about the first amendment. Meaning I don’t care about the first amendment. That strikes me as more than a minor evasion, my friend. If you want to question my dedication to the first amendment, or the merits of the Fairness Doctrine (which by the way conservatives were pushing hard for before they got ahold of talk radio) let’s open a thread on that; right now, we’re talking about the utterly ridiculous claim that was made above that the right just doesn’t get irrational and nasty.
As for whether the mainstream media is really dominated by leftist hatred: I don’t think so, and I think that’s an irrational, foaming-at-the-mouth statement all by itself. You can document and demonstrate specific failings of the press, and you can document and demonstrate empirical facts (like the empirical fact that the vast majority of the working press votes Democratic in every election). But shrieking hatred for Republicans? The norm in the mainstream press? Take a valium, dude.
Maybe you just weren’t watching politics in the 1990s like you do now. I remember how bad it got. I’m even thinking an Obama administration will be a blessing in disguise because we’ll get to see the old Nasty Right I know so well come back to prominence.
Dean:
If you truly believe that the right is as batshit crazy as the Left when it comes to modern politics, I can only shake my head.
Show me the video of a city full of right-wing lemmings flipping off and viciously cursing Obama supporters as they walk down the public street in broad daylight or shut the hell up.
CosmicConservative’s last blog post..First snow sticking on the ground
Cosmic,
Hyperbole doesn’t serve your argument well. City full?
Martin:
Have you seen the video? I wish it were hyperbole. Maybe I should add, show me the video of conservatives shouting down and storming the stage when a liberal is speaking. Or perhaps I should ask for some demonstration of a college or university refusing to allow a left-wing speaker access to the campus… I could go on and on.
The truth is that both sides have their crazies, but the Left has more both in terms of quantity and quality. And it may not be fully mainstream yet, but it’s awful damn close.
Perhaps after eight years of Obama the situation will be reversed, but I frankly doubt it.
CosmicConservative’s last blog post..Toon of the Day
"City full" is hyperbole. Look it up.
Martin:
"City full" is NOT Hyperbole, YOU look it up.
"City full" does NOT mean EVERY SINGLE PERSON in the city, it means the city is FULL OF people exhibiting the behavior, and in my opinion the video absolutely PROVES that New York is FULL of batshit moonbats who will curse and flip off any conservative in full view of children because they are so full of hate and vitriol.
I don’t want to get into another pedantic argument with you about asinine word definitions Martin, if you want to make every argument about the precise definitions of terms, go do it with someone else and I’ll argue with people who use words NORMALLY instead of according to some internal compulsion to adhere to some personal definition of every term used.
I don’t have the time, and it doesn’t address the actual argument being presented. It’s a waste of time. Go argue angels on the head of a pin with someone else.
CosmicConservative’s last blog post..Toon of the Day
The whole city full of people didn’t commit the behavior you describe. Your hyperbole makles you look silly, not serious.
Martin, you’re asinine insistence on interpreting every word as literally as possible is making YOU look silly.
My use of the term "city full" is perfectly understandable by any REASONABLE person exactly as I intended it.
As I said, you want to be pedantic, go ahead, this isn’t the first time you’ve sidetracked an argument into your own personal compulsive cul-de-sac. And I’m sure it won’t be the last.
I’d say that this is as obvious as the sky is blue, but I’m sure you’d say “well, the sky isn’t ENTIRELY or ALWAYS blue, calling the sky blue is by definition ‘hyperbole’.”
Sheesh… I’m done with this.
CosmicConservative’s last blog post..Toon of the Day
Cosmic, your resorting to insult shows my point is accurate. You’re wrong, and you’re pissed at me for pointing it out. Dean says the right is equally prone to excess; and in trying to refute him, the first tool you reach for is excess.
Martin:
Believe what you like. Because people get irritated by your pedantic nonsense does not mean their arguments are wrong. Refute my argument. Go find me a video that shows exactly what will refute my argument. Or as I told Dean, shut the hell up.
CosmicConservative’s last blog post..Toon of the Day
By the way, I love your logic Martin.
"I made you mad by being a pedantic moron, therefore you are wrong."
Geez, you win a lot of debates with that definition I’m sure. At least in your own mind you do.
CosmicConservative’s last blog post..Toon of the Day
Your continued hostility demonstrates your error. And I’m sure glad no conservatives believe in silencing free speech! Or does "shut the hell up" also have some metaphorical meaning that only you are privy to?
You’re mad because you’re wrong, and you’re unwilling to admit it. That pisses you off, so you lash out.
Martin:
Again, I love your logic. "All I have to do to claim victory in an argument is piss off my opponent."
Find me a video that shows conservatives acting like the liberals in the video from New York or admit that you can’t.
That video IS my argument Martin. Refute the video. Your pathetic sophomoric attempt to turn the argument into a pissing match over the use of a common term widely used in conversation is what is pissing me off.
Here’s an analogy. "Mom, I can’t eat these brownies, they’re full of walnuts."Â "Oh they can’t be FULL of walnuts, or there’d be no brownie, just walnuts silly boy, therefore you have to eat the brownies."
That’s the level of logic of your argument Martin. And your whole "if you get mad, you must be losing" thing is just as simplistic and sophomoric. I’m not mad because I’m losing, Martin, I’m mad because you are turning a discussion of relative craziness on Left vs. Right into a personal crusade for your own compulsive desire to define the terms of the argument. It’s not the first time. This is something about you that really gets under my skin. Your belief that you have ultimate authority on the use of terms in an argument is about as frustrating and counter-productive as any debate dynamic I have ever encountered. We’ve now spent MOST of this thread arguing over whether or not “full of” is hyperbole or common use with common understanding. You haven’t even BEGUN to address the ACTUAL topic of this debate Martin, you’ve dragged it into another of your compulsive definitional cul-de-sacs and you’re now chortling over how you’ve managed to piss off your opponent.
But, as I said, you’ve done it before and you’ll do it again. If you had any actual MERIT to your argument you’d present THAT instead of this insane compulsion of yours to get your own use of “full of” recognized as the ONLY use of the term.
Debate the topic Martin. FORGET the supposed hyperbole. Say something that actually ADDRESSES the merit of the argument. PROVE to me that the right is as unhinged as the left. Find me a video that refutes the one I referred to. Or, as I said, admit you can’t.
CosmicConservative’s last blog post..Podcars?. fiction or fact?
No, but their talking heads like Rush Limbaugh do make statements saying that they are "dreaming of riots" at the DNC. Also, what about the Brooks Brothers Riot? How about this? Or the airhorns at this guy’s press conference, including fights that broke out. There’s more but I won’t spend more than 5 seconds on this.
Oh yeah, people yelling "terrorist" and "kill him" against Obama at McCain and Palin rallies is not excessive… no sir. At least, not if a conservative does it.
Cosmic, what you can’t seem to get through your head is I’m not disputing the video. I’m saying that when the subject is rhetorical excess and the harm it does, rhetorical excess does not serve your argument well. And when the subject is "who does it more", exaggerating how much one side does it makes a shoddy argument.
Notice despite your hyperbole in the Peak Oil thread, I made no comments about it there. Hyperbole in that thread does no harm to your argument. Hyperbole in this thread demonstrates Dean’s point.
But since you’re too pissed to listen, you’ll never understand that.
Oh yeah, people yelling "terrorist" and "kill him" against Obama at McCain and Palin rallies is not excessive… no sir. At least, not if a conservative does it.
Ed Donovan, a spokesman for the Secret Service said this:
However, he cautioned that at the McCain rally, "no Secret Service agent overheard any threatening statement and no threatening statements were reported by law enforcement or the general public.""We did make some inquiries after the Washington Post reported on Tuesday that a someone had yelled ‘kill him,’" he added.Donovan said it wasn’t clear whether the threat was actually vocalized or, if so, if it was meant for Obama or even Ayers, both of whose names were uttered by Palin at that moment in her speech.For those reasons, he added, the investigation was dropped.
*Thumbs up*
Yup you’re right. That dude yelling ‘kill him’ was talking about Abe Vigoda. Look out Abe!
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