Comments on: Of Soles And Souls http://deanesmay.com/2008/12/27/of-soles-and-souls/ Defending the liberal tradition in history, science, and philosophy. Wed, 23 May 2012 12:36:54 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Dean Esmay http://deanesmay.com/2008/12/27/of-soles-and-souls/#comment-167218 Dean Esmay Mon, 05 Jan 2009 21:47:54 +0000 http://deanesmay.com/2008/12/27/of-soles-and-souls/#comment-167218 Well, here's a few hurtful facts for ya, TTH: 1) The war wasn't illegal. 2) Saddam was not CIA-installed. That's a myth. 3) The Iraqi people are already, today, freer than they ever have been in all of Iraqi history, with improvements still continuing. So, I'd suggest that if "the truth hurts," you're in a whole lotta pain right now, TTH, because the facts simply don't match up with what you've said here. ;-) Well, here’s a few hurtful facts for ya, TTH:

1) The war wasn’t illegal.

2) Saddam was not CIA-installed. That’s a myth.

3) The Iraqi people are already, today, freer than they ever have been in all of Iraqi history, with improvements still continuing.

So, I’d suggest that if "the truth hurts," you’re in a whole lotta pain right now, TTH, because the facts simply don’t match up with what you’ve said here. ;-)

]]> By: The Truth Hurts http://deanesmay.com/2008/12/27/of-soles-and-souls/#comment-167215 The Truth Hurts Mon, 05 Jan 2009 20:19:33 +0000 http://deanesmay.com/2008/12/27/of-soles-and-souls/#comment-167215  I have a little different outlook than many of you on this issue. Sure, in the beginning of the invasion Bush was looked at as a "Liberator". However, sadly those times are long gone. In ten years,  history will probably look at the Iraq war for what it is : an illegal pre-emptive strike that toppled a ruthless regime (remember how Saddam got there....CIA installed) in order to show the world that America will bow down to nobody in the name of Capitalism. What companies benefit from all these "success" stories that people seem to applaud? Looks like American business. Sorry folks, but in ten years Bush will look horrible as permanent U.S. bases is Iraq remain and freedom for the Iraqi people is absent.  I have a little different outlook than many of you on this issue. Sure, in the beginning of the invasion Bush was looked at as a "Liberator". However, sadly those times are long gone. In ten years,  history will probably look at the Iraq war for what it is : an illegal pre-emptive strike that toppled a ruthless regime (remember how Saddam got there….CIA installed) in order to show the world that America will bow down to nobody in the name of Capitalism. What companies benefit from all these "success" stories that people seem to applaud? Looks like American business. Sorry folks, but in ten years Bush will look horrible as permanent U.S. bases is Iraq remain and freedom for the Iraqi people is absent.

]]> By: Kevin D. http://deanesmay.com/2008/12/27/of-soles-and-souls/#comment-167026 Kevin D. Mon, 29 Dec 2008 06:18:39 +0000 http://deanesmay.com/2008/12/27/of-soles-and-souls/#comment-167026 Also, I don't believe Ghandi's efforts would have been nearly as effective as they were if a number of groups the British knew <em>were</em> willing to use force hadn't signed up with him. Ghandi may not have realized it (and I'm fairly sure he didn't given his absolutely absurd words about Jews under Nazism) but the British did:  Ghandi had but say the word and many people would have spilled blood for him. Also, I don’t believe Ghandi’s efforts would have been nearly as effective as they were if a number of groups the British knew were willing to use force hadn’t signed up with him.

Ghandi may not have realized it (and I’m fairly sure he didn’t given his absolutely absurd words about Jews under Nazism) but the British did:  Ghandi had but say the word and many people would have spilled blood for him.

]]> By: zach http://deanesmay.com/2008/12/27/of-soles-and-souls/#comment-167023 zach Mon, 29 Dec 2008 03:37:39 +0000 http://deanesmay.com/2008/12/27/of-soles-and-souls/#comment-167023 maybe it's not the most expert analogy.  i'm just saying that i don't know that ghandi ever claimed that his philosophies would work with no bloodshed, or that they would work quickly.  you could describe the martyrdom and persecution of early christians as essentially nonviolent noncooperation. although, like you said, his aims were basically nonpolitical, so, again, not the best analogy. maybe it’s not the most expert analogy.  i’m just saying that i don’t know that ghandi ever claimed that his philosophies would work with no bloodshed, or that they would work quickly.  you could describe the martyrdom and persecution of early christians as essentially nonviolent noncooperation.

although, like you said, his aims were basically nonpolitical, so, again, not the best analogy.

]]> By: Dean Esmay http://deanesmay.com/2008/12/27/of-soles-and-souls/#comment-167022 Dean Esmay Mon, 29 Dec 2008 03:13:22 +0000 http://deanesmay.com/2008/12/27/of-soles-and-souls/#comment-167022 Uhr, not only was Jesus martyred, but for the first couple of CENTURIES the early Christians were deeply oppressed, countless among them (numbering in the tens of thousands at least) murdered, enslaved, tortured, etc.  Eventually that Church persevered and became the dominant religion in Europe and hugely important in Asia, but "worked out pretty good" only works in this formulation if you count in terms of centuries, and consider the countless dead, maimed, etc. just a small price. Otherwise I don't get your point. Jesus wasn't a political reformer (well that wasn't his main goal anyway), and he also wasn't completely pacifist; note his action in laying waste to the moneylenders, his instructions to his apostles to carry a sword on certain journeys, and even his reappearance in Revelation wielding a sword. "Non-violent protest" was not Jesus' gig, man. Sorry. Can you name me any other pacifist reformers prior to, say, the 19th century, who had a huge impact on the world? I'm not sure you can. Uhr, not only was Jesus martyred, but for the first couple of CENTURIES the early Christians were deeply oppressed, countless among them (numbering in the tens of thousands at least) murdered, enslaved, tortured, etc.  Eventually that Church persevered and became the dominant religion in Europe and hugely important in Asia, but "worked out pretty good" only works in this formulation if you count in terms of centuries, and consider the countless dead, maimed, etc. just a small price.

Otherwise I don’t get your point. Jesus wasn’t a political reformer (well that wasn’t his main goal anyway), and he also wasn’t completely pacifist; note his action in laying waste to the moneylenders, his instructions to his apostles to carry a sword on certain journeys, and even his reappearance in Revelation wielding a sword. "Non-violent protest" was not Jesus’ gig, man. Sorry.

Can you name me any other pacifist reformers prior to, say, the 19th century, who had a huge impact on the world? I’m not sure you can.

]]> By: zach http://deanesmay.com/2008/12/27/of-soles-and-souls/#comment-167021 zach Sun, 28 Dec 2008 23:01:27 +0000 http://deanesmay.com/2008/12/27/of-soles-and-souls/#comment-167021 Dean and J.A., It should be noted that nonviolent resistance and subsequent martyrdom worked okay for Jesus and a few other notable early Christians.  Granted it took a few centuries longer than Gandhi's resistance did.  Though I suppose you could make the case that the Romans were in many respects fundamentally decent. Dean and J.A.,

It should be noted that nonviolent resistance and subsequent martyrdom worked okay for Jesus and a few other notable early Christians.  Granted it took a few centuries longer than Gandhi’s resistance did.  Though I suppose you could make the case that the Romans were in many respects fundamentally decent.

]]> By: Dean Esmay http://deanesmay.com/2008/12/27/of-soles-and-souls/#comment-167020 Dean Esmay Sun, 28 Dec 2008 20:14:12 +0000 http://deanesmay.com/2008/12/27/of-soles-and-souls/#comment-167020 By the way, I have one big hope on Iraq now, which will be that the press suddenly notices how incredibly well things are going there. I expect that to happen fairly shortly after Obama is sworn in. For obvious reasons, they can't notice any such thing before that. By the way, I have one big hope on Iraq now, which will be that the press suddenly notices how incredibly well things are going there. I expect that to happen fairly shortly after Obama is sworn in. For obvious reasons, they can’t notice any such thing before that.

]]> By: Dean Esmay http://deanesmay.com/2008/12/27/of-soles-and-souls/#comment-167016 Dean Esmay Sun, 28 Dec 2008 13:26:38 +0000 http://deanesmay.com/2008/12/27/of-soles-and-souls/#comment-167016 JA Eddy: I'm glad you're teaching your son that way. And I'm with you entirely: if Gandhi had been up against Nazis or Communists, we wouldn't even know who he was. He'd have been shot in the throat or hung right after making his first headline. But he faced the basically decent British. And shamed them into letting India (and Pakistan) rule themselves. JA Eddy: I’m glad you’re teaching your son that way. And I’m with you entirely: if Gandhi had been up against Nazis or Communists, we wouldn’t even know who he was. He’d have been shot in the throat or hung right after making his first headline.

But he faced the basically decent British. And shamed them into letting India (and Pakistan) rule themselves.

]]> By: Ron Coleman http://deanesmay.com/2008/12/27/of-soles-and-souls/#comment-167012 Ron Coleman Sun, 28 Dec 2008 04:05:04 +0000 http://deanesmay.com/2008/12/27/of-soles-and-souls/#comment-167012 Great post, Dave.  I got creamed when I tried to make this point recently, but history will judge you, me and George Bush as having been right on this issue.  (Also some of our friends!) <em>Ron Coleman's last blog post..<a href='http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/LikelihoodOfSuccess/~3/496708407/' rel="nofollow">Best of 2008: “Small World” (May)</a></em> Great post, Dave.  I got creamed when I tried to make this point recently, but history will judge you, me and George Bush as having been right on this issue.  (Also some of our friends!)

Ron Coleman’s last blog post..Best of 2008: “Small World” (May)

]]> By: J.A. Eddy http://deanesmay.com/2008/12/27/of-soles-and-souls/#comment-167011 J.A. Eddy Sun, 28 Dec 2008 03:50:29 +0000 http://deanesmay.com/2008/12/27/of-soles-and-souls/#comment-167011 CC, et al- My take exactly. What would have happened to Mr. Shoechucker had he tossed his size 10's at Saddam Hussein in 2001? Iraq is a better country because of the commitment of President Bush and the courage and commitment of the men and women sent to fight that war. It's not perfect and never will be, but if they get through the next set of elections without violence they will stand head and shoulders above the rest of the Arab world, and it will have been president Bush and the American military that gave them the leg up to do it. God, how that must gall the BDS fanatics. Oh, and Dave, it's funny you mention Gandhi. i got my oldest into all sorts of trouble in high school because when he had to write an essay about why Gandhi's methods were so successful I told him (inspired of course, by so many blog posts on this very subject) to stipulate it was because he was dealing with the ostensibly civilized British instead of the Nazis or Communists. He got an A eventually, but only because he was able to defend his essay on the merits- the teacher hated him for it. CC, et al-

My take exactly. What would have happened to Mr. Shoechucker had he tossed his size 10′s at Saddam Hussein in 2001?

Iraq is a better country because of the commitment of President Bush and the courage and commitment of the men and women sent to fight that war. It’s not perfect and never will be, but if they get through the next set of elections without violence they will stand head and shoulders above the rest of the Arab world, and it will have been president Bush and the American military that gave them the leg up to do it. God, how that must gall the BDS fanatics.

Oh, and Dave, it’s funny you mention Gandhi. i got my oldest into all sorts of trouble in high school because when he had to write an essay about why Gandhi’s methods were so successful I told him (inspired of course, by so many blog posts on this very subject) to stipulate it was because he was dealing with the ostensibly civilized British instead of the Nazis or Communists. He got an A eventually, but only because he was able to defend his essay on the merits- the teacher hated him for it.

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