The Eurabia meme gets some results. It’s essentially racism, nothing more than “muslims are orcs” masquerading as a defense of Western values when in fact it stands utterly and implacably opposed. Why is it these things – Eurabia, anti-Semitism, fascism – always seem to find their origin in Europe?
Defending the liberal tradition in history, science, and philosophy.
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The “Eurabia” debate isn’t something I’m interested in getting in to. I don’t see the point really.
However, I would like to point out that the orcs in The Lord of the Rings have often been used to symbolize whatever ethnicity the person talking seems to want to pick a fight about. Orcs as Muslims is new to me. I’ve typically heard that orcs/Haradrim were supposed to represent Africans.
Really, I find that those who look for racism in the Lord of the Rings only find their own bigotry.
As the saying goes: Show me a man looking for racism, I’ll show you a racist.
EDIT:
As for anti-Semitism and fascism – they both were enthusiastically embraced in the Middle East during WW2. Hitler found eager allies in the Arab population there more than happy to kill a few Jews. And the Middle East today is hardly fertile ground for freedom and tolerance. Aside from Israel there isn’t a nation in that area you could pay me to visit.
Fascism and anti-Semitism is hardly unique to Europe.
don’t misunderstand me just because I am lazy about explaining my meaning :P I dont blame Tolkien or think that LOTR was racist. I am lampooning the idea however that Tolkien can be invoked by “defenders of the West” who are essentially violating the very norms of the civilization they claim to revere. You certainly can project whatever you like on fiction – and good fiction, like LOTR, lends itself very well to this. But all the Eurabia crowd are doing is taking the visual scene of Aragorn against the orc horde, they aren’t delving any deeper into LOTR than that or into what “the West” really means.
Its orcs, not the Western champions, who would tear down the very thing they claim to revere in order to “save it”.
I know pomo lit-crits love to argue that a writer is a prisoner of his “social milieu” – and there’s probably some truth to it – but Tolkein himself “cordially disliked allegory in all its manifestations”.
But if there’s any “there” there, it’s clear that Tolkein was an antiquarian and fan of “the good old days”, and everything flows from that. Tolkein definitely used very un-PC descriptions of participants in Sauron’s armies, but he also gave lots of hints that they were humans. In one, Sam wonders, while pondering a dead Southron, “whether he was evil at heart, or were lies and threats used to drive him on the long march to Gondor”.
Yeah, I don’t want to get into the “Eurabia” debate or overreading into Tolkien debate (well, that’s because I just don’t like his works), my only concern in commenting is to point out the “muslim” is decidedly not a “race”. A race is something you’re born to, you cannot change your race. You may be able to hide it as some light-skinned blacks used to do, but it doesn’t change the fact that you have black-African (or Australian) ancestery. “Muslim” is a choice, exactly like “Christian” is a choice (or at least Muslim should be a choice. Too often we see people born to Muslim parents forced to adopt the Muslim label in a variety of violent and non-violent ways). We wouldn’t say bigotry against Christians is “racist” would we? Of course not, it’s just simple bigotry and that’s what intolerance against Muslims is: simple bigotry.
Mike, in Europe most muslim communities are mono-racial immigrants. Plus as a whole they do tend to be brown or black on average. There’s a substantial element ofgenuine, old fashioned racism at the core of Islamophobia and Eurabia indeed.
Kevin: “Muslims as Orcs” new? Gosh you don’t read the front page much do ya Kev? We’ve written about it many times.
Anyone/all: I really don’t see what the point is in trying to read anything into Tolkein; the allegory isn’t an attack on Tolkein, it’s an attack on dehumanization.
If we’re going to strictly talk about Tolkein, though, I was under the impression that the strong implication was that they were mutated elves. On the flip side, I’m not a Tolkein fan either; I enjoyed some of his work (The Hobbit was fun, light reading), but really had to work hard to slog myself through the tedious and dull Lord of the Rings trilogy. The movies were pretty OK. But for some reason, just having grown up with so many geeks, I’ve absorbed almost all the Tolkein trivia that they know, without even really trying. ;-)
For anyone not familiar with the “Eurabia” meme, it’s a sort of weird conspiracy mentality, with some smart and otherwise decent people pushing it, and a lot of weird people pushing it, that Europe is being overrun by Arab and/or Muslim immigrants and will be destroyed by them within a few generations.
Those pushing the meme seem hardly able to tell an Arab and a Muslim apart. Being a Muslim is a religion, not a race. There are tons of Arabs who are not Muslims.”Arab” is a race or ethnicity, not a religion. There are tons of Muslims who aren’t Arabs at all.
Indeed, this is about like thinking that “Catholic” and “Italian” are the same thing. It’s a really weird mistake to make, but an awful lot of people seem to make it.
Dean:
I don’t know about the “Eurabia” meme, but I would not be so quick to discount the concept that “demography is history.”
In Europe we are seeing traditional European rates of birth dropping to negative values, while Muslim birth rates and Muslim immigration are rapidly rising.
In the USA a similar thing is happening with Hispanics.
It also seems clear to me that this population pressure has ALREADY led to significant cultural changes in Europe, and is doing the same thing here (Spanish as a second language, anyone?).
I don’t know what the long term result of this trend will be, but to pretend that there is not a significant indication that Europe and America are changing culturally as we watch seems to be willful ignorance to me. It’s happening.
Am I alarmed? Not terribly. Am I concerned? A little perhaps.
By the way, I am one of those who look at the Hispanic influence on this country as a generally positive thing. I don’t care for illegal immigration, but by and large I find Hispanic culture to be very similar to traditional American culture.
In Europe, I don’t see the same thing. I see a major difference in the Muslim culture and the traditional European culture. In my mind, as the demography shifts, that portends a more difficult merger of the two cultures.
Demography is interesting stuff, and, just like any statistical analysis or political science you have to look at the data and math and conclusions carefully.
I find it fascinating that you think of Hispanic culture as very similar to American culture. Not that I disagree necessarily, but, I know an awful lot of folks, personally, who are 180 degrees in opposition to you on that. They consider it very alien to their values, whether it’s because of the high rate of Catholicism, the different values in religion and family structure and business and language and so on. I’m neither attacking nor defending this, I’m just saying: REALLY? You’re about the first white guy I’ve come across who actually says he thinks Hispanic culture is very similiar to American. (Whatever “American” is because I’m never entirely sure on that one either since I see an awful lot of differences between your average Louisiana Coonass, your average Southwesterner, a New Yorker, and the folks in Iowa.)
I myself consider Hispanic cuture different but unthreatening, FWIW. And, as I grew up in the late ’60s in Texas, where Spanish as a second language was extremely common, I don’t even know what to make of people who think it odd. And I also don’t know what to make of people who think having second language be common in various parts of the United States as somehow bizarre or threatening; for generations, French and German competed quite a bit with English all over the United States. Until the 1950s, believe it or not, the entire State of Pennsylvania (you know, where fabled Philadelphia lies) was officially bilingual: Dutch and English. Hell, frickin’ Lawrence Welk was born in 1903 up in North Dakota speaking German as his first and primary language; he didn’t even learn English until he was a teenager–born and bred in the good old US of A.
As for European and “Muslim” culture: I just don’t know what to do with that since “Muslim” isn’t a culture, although it has an influence on various cultures. And I don’t even know what the heck “European” culture is supposed to be; although these days with all the mixing there’s a growing homgeneity, the very IDEA that there was a “European culture” probably would have gotten you laughed at in most of Europe and the United States barely 100 years ago. Germany, Poland, France, Ireland, Sweden and Italy the same culture? REALLY?!?
As for the rate of reproduction for native Europeans vs. their “Muslim” immigrants: why yes, it does happen to be true that immigrants are reproducing there at a much higher rate; native Europeans have been reproducing at lower than the replacement rate for some time, while immigrants (and their first generation or so children) are reproducing above it. Well here’s a news flash: the same has been true in the United States since about THE 1950s. In other words, for about 60 years. If we’d stopped all immigration in 1950, the U.S. population would probably be less than half what it is today.
Trivia question: are we on average wealthier, healthier, longer-lived, and less plagued with crime than we were in the 1950s? As it happens, the answer is “yes” to every one of those questions. Ditto pollution by the way, for whatever that’s worth.
The presumption of those “Eurabia” fearers is that these “Muslim” immigrants will take over and destroy their culture. This rests on the premise that Muslims, uniquely unlike any other immigrant group in history, will amass by the tens of millions and absolutely refuse to assimilate in any way, that their children and grandchildren will in no way be influenced by the culture they’ve immigrated into.
I would think a more significant concern for the Europeans is the fact that in some of their countries, while they allow large amounts of immigration they do not ALLOW any real assimilation. People can be 2nd, even 3rd generation born within a place like France and still not be considered French. They are literally ghettoized and still stigmatized–it’s a much more racist nation when it comes to stuff like that. To me, that’s a clearly bad idea and bad strategy; if you don’t welcome your immigrant population to become part of your society and culture, then they WILL develop as a second culture within your borders, much like black culture developed in the United States until the 1960s because they were also not allowed to assimilate into the wider culture.
“Assimilation” is not a bad thing in this context, by the way, although some immigrant and/or ethnic groups view it as a bad thing. From my frame of reference, it’s only a bad thing if it’s forced on people, like they did to my great-grandmother when she was basically kidnapped off an Indian reservation and forcibly raised by white teachers in an “orphanage” to have “white” culture and “white” values. This of course was brute force assimilation that was outright child abuse (not to mention several other crimes at once). But allowing people in to become part of your culture, to bring new things to it while they adopt what they like of your culture? All good so far as I’m concerned.
Dean: I’m not gonna argue the point about Muslim culture. I think it’s as obvious as the sun in the sky that it exists. But if you don’t see it, no argument of mine is gonna convince you of it.
You express surprise that I consider American and Mexican culture to be similar. Well, I do. I try to look at things from an objective perspective, and when I do, I see far more similarity between Americans and Mexicans than I see differences, both in terms of cultural practices and in terms of shared history.
I’m sure there are plenty of people who would be shocked to hear that I consider Canadians and Americans to be quite similar too.
You can express all the surprise you want that I consider there to be a “European” culture. There’s a REASON colleges taught “Western Civilization” as a class and as a concept for hundreds of years. Because it’s rather obviously TRUE that Europe is a culture. Sure you can say that people ARGUED differently, but when French daughters were routinely married off to English sons, and Polish were married off to German, and Russian to whatever… eventually virtually ALL of the royal families of Europe were joined in blood. If that don’t make a cultural foundation, I dunno what does.
I concur with your point about assimilation. I know it is hard for some people to believe, but Hispanics are assimilating into American culture, and bringing some cultural aspects of their own with them. Sure there is some friction and some people will go apeshit over anything, but we ARE assimilating. Just as we did with the Irish and the German and the Polish, etc… That’s a great strength of this country.
On the other hand I don’t think that the lack of assimilation of Muslims into European culture is necessarily entirely the fault of the Europeans. There looks to me to be a strong desire NOT to assimilate in many cases between Muslims and Europeans.
What I find interesting is that I don’t think that’s nearly as true here in the USA. For whatever reason I do think that Muslims here are assimilating much more than in Europe. I’m not sure if that’s because the USA is better at encouraging assimilation, or if the Muslims who immigrate here tend to be those who are more likely to assimilate. But I am glad that it’s true.
I have a couple of good friends who are Muslim, and throughout the travails of the past decade, we have never exchanged a harsh word. I’ve greatly enjoyed their company and I hope the same is true on their side. I believe they are more representative of American Muslims than some people would admit to be the case.
I don’t see “Western Civilization” as describing a broad Western Culture. I don’t think you’re talking about the same things there at all. Western Civilization inherited a lot of cultural ideas from the Romans and through the Romans the ancient Greeks, but the dissolution of that Empire resulted in an explosion of different cultures and languages that were very alien–and mutually antagonistic–to each other. What you describe about intermarrying by and large ONLY happened among the various ruling families; it was otherwise considered rather scandalous and definitely not well-accepted in most of Europe for a thousand years for people to intermarry like that. Only the ruling families did that, and for reasons that everyone understood to be almost entirely political.
Anti-immigrant sentiment in the United States has always, always, always been based on claims that this, that, or the other immigrant group is of a culture foreign to the United States. The argument against the Irish was very much based on that. The argument against the Italians was very much based on that. The argument against Mexican immigrants is often based on the very same assertions: their culture won’t assimilate with ours. I hear it all the time, I’m surprised you haven’t.
As for your belief in a Muslim monoculture: Oh, I can definitely see this mythical culture that’s entirely a product of limited media portrayals and general ignorance, yes. I’m surprised your’e caught up in this fantasy because you seem like too smart a guy for that. Don’t know what to do to help you with that, but I think doing some study of history would help, as would some study of what the various Muslim cultures of the world really look like; anyone who does can tell you there simply IS no single “Muslim” culture, that they’re as fractured as all the rest of us and many of them can’t stand each other. Their modes of dress, their ways of worship, their languages, their music, their systems of government–all wildly different wherever you go around the world, with far more differences than similarities.
But if you believe the fantasy, and you want to grip tightly onto that fantasy, well, I guess there’s not much I can do to shake you out of it. ;-)
By comparison, by the way, I’ve never met ANYONE who doesn’t agree that Canadian and American culture are virtually siamese twins–except of course for the French Canadians.
But I’ve met so many people who believe hispanic culture is alien and threatening and dangerous, I don’t even know where to begin counting, and I see an awful lot of differences myself. Those differences don’t bug me much, but they obviously bug a lot of other people. (Although I confess I think it’s mostly the language that’s their real issue, whether they’re conscious of it or not.)
Dean: I think most of the “disagreement” we are having is a difference of scale. Maybe I should call it a “macro culture” which contains many “micro cultures” within it.
Here are some examples of why I think Western Culture is a definite “thing.” Some of it goes back to Roman and Greek roots. The “Czar” in Russia isn’t a derivative of “Caesar” for arbitrary reasons. Some of it goes even further back to language roots and mythological roots. Some of it is based on the spread of Christianity across most of the continent. Although there are very significant differences between Russian and Spanish “cultures” there are more similarities in my view. I guess we’ll just have to disagree on this, but note that I don’t condescend to you when I disagree with you. As far as using “antagonism” to demonstrate the differences in culture, it’s fairly well known that many of the most vicious wars are between cousins.
I also didn’t say that I haven’t HEARD that Hispanics won’t assimilate. Sure I’ve HEARD that. I just don’t AGREE with it.
As far as the Muslim monolith, again I think you and I are seeing things on different scales. Again I see family feuds and differences within the Muslim culture as a whole. But when people base their beliefs on the same book, and worship the same God, and claim to follow the same prophet, if that isn’t a “culture” then again, I don’t know what it is called. The fact that there is variation WITHIN the culture does not negate the commonality OF the culture.
Not to me anyway.
I read CC’s comments, and despair. Not because I think hes a bad person or abigot or racist or any of that, but because I dont think he is any of those things.
If “western culture” or “western civilization” has any meaning at all, its being destroyed by the attitudes of those who invoke Eurabia. That includes you, CC, in part, if you persist in these views, which are on teh wrong side of teh facts as well as the history of the civilization we both belong to.
“muslim culture” ? “european culture” ? nonsensical.
Aziz:
I stand by my analysis. I think it is blatantly obvious. A group of people who share myths, fashion, religion and history is, I think by definition, a “culture.”
As I said, there are cultures within cultures, but to say that because Russia and Spain have differences, they aren’t the same culture is to say that since Moscow and St. Petersberg have differences, they aren’t the same culture.
Also, I don’t see what you are whining about. Nowhere in any of my posts have I passed judment on the cultural impact of Hispanics on America or of Muslims on Europe. You read what you want into people’s comments. All I said is that the impact in the USA is likely to be less than the impact in Europe because the cultures involved are more similar in the USA than in Europe.
If that causes you despair, you must daily face despair from many facts of life. The fact that simple reality makes you despair is not my problem.
What facts do I have wrong Aziz? Please be specific since you are accusing me of being ignorant, stupid, racist or SOMETHING. Instead of some generic, vague attack because you don’t like the MESSAGE, let’s stick to the facts of the situation.
Do YOU believe that the cultural friction in Europe between Europeans and Muslims is less than the cultural friction in America between Hispanics and Americans?
Last time I checked, hispanics weren’t burning cars in Los Angeles every night.
Which of my assertions is causing you so much despair?
1. That Muslim culture is more different compared to European culture than Hispanic culture is compared to American culture?
2. That Muslim populations are growing in Europe MUCH faster than traditional European populations?
3. That cultural impacts when groups attempt to assimilate are more severe when the cultures are less alike?
4. That Muslims in Europe are assimilating less successfully than Hispanics in America?
Which of those is factually incorrect Aziz? Because that’s all I said in my post.
By the way, if you are interested:
Definition of culture: ” the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group ”
Western Culture
Muslim Culture
… since you seem to think I made these concepts up.
Geez I hope I never get so caught up in my own ideology that I pretend such common and obvious concepts as these don’t exist because I don’t like what they mean to my ideology…
congratsm, you found an article on Muslim Culture in Wikipedia. But did you actually read it?
Your point 1 is factually wrong, because you cant define either term. So is point 2, as my own links show in my post.
I dont think you can quantify 3, and I disagree that “similarity” is the key, in fact its really a matter of how inclusive the society is towards its immigrants. Were it not so, then muslims in the US and muslims in the UK would be equally non-assimilated.
Point 4 is true, bt has nothing to do with hispanics or muslims, but everything to do with eth attitude towardds immigrants in the US and Europe. This is an extension of my argument in teh previous para.
Part of it is the type of immigrants that are attracted, why they come, and how easy it is to assimilate. Much of Europe over-coddles its immigrants, so they have little incentive to do the heavy lifting needed to assimilate. Where I live, I see lots of immigrants working hard to build little businesses, learn English, and otherwise assimilate – including Muslim immigrants such as Persians and Pakistanis.
I believe the worst thing you can do with immigrants is put them on the dole. The best thing you can do is to make it clear that if they work their heinies off, they’ll build a life and their children will be “accepted”.
Aziz, you apparently believe that your opinion qualifies as fact. I don’t agree with you. And I’m not alone on this subject. Insisting over and over again that YOUR definition of “culture” is the ONLY definition, in spite of the CLEAR definition Merriam-Webster supplied may make you feel better, but it’s not compelling debate.
Besides, you and Dean are trying to turn that into a semantic argument as if the word “culture” itself is central to my argument. It is not. What is central is that Europeans have certain beliefs, traditions, CULTURE and other uniting CULTURAL elements, and so do Muslims, so do Americans and so do Mexicans.
Since you aren’t arguing the “culture” comment on Mexicans and Americans you seem to be conceding that those ARE “cultures.”
Yet you don’t see Europe and Muslim as cultures apparently because they are not “monolithic.” Focusing on this narrow semantic argument cleverly allows you to ignore the FUNDAMENTAL POINTS being made about the friction that assimilation generates.
Also Aziz, you said that America is better assimilating hispanics because we are better assimilators, implying that we would be just as good at assimilating Muslims. Maybe that’s true, I suggested it was a possibility in fact. HOWEVER, that hasn’t really been tested because the scope of Muslim immigration in Europe is closer to that of hispanic immigration in America than to MUSLIM immigration in America.
I’m not so sure that if we had the same scope of Muslim immigration that it would be going as smoothly.
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