Besides, you and Dean are trying to turn that into a semantic argument as if the word “culture” itself is central to my argument. It is not. What is central is that Europeans have certain beliefs, traditions, CULTURE and other uniting CULTURAL elements, and so do Muslims, so do Americans and so do Mexicans.

Since you aren’t arguing the “culture” comment on Mexicans and Americans you seem to be conceding that those ARE “cultures.”

Yet you don’t see Europe and Muslim as cultures apparently because they are not “monolithic.” Focusing on this narrow semantic argument cleverly allows you to ignore the FUNDAMENTAL POINTS being made about the friction that assimilation generates.

Also Aziz, you said that America is better assimilating hispanics because we are better assimilators, implying that we would be just as good at assimilating Muslims. Maybe that’s true, I suggested it was a possibility in fact. HOWEVER, that hasn’t really been tested because the scope of Muslim immigration in Europe is closer to that of hispanic immigration in America than to MUSLIM immigration in America.

I’m not so sure that if we had the same scope of Muslim immigration that it would be going as smoothly.

I believe the worst thing you can do with immigrants is put them on the dole. The best thing you can do is to make it clear that if they work their heinies off, they’ll build a life and their children will be “accepted”.

Your point 1 is factually wrong, because you cant define either term. So is point 2, as my own links show in my post.

I dont think you can quantify 3, and I disagree that “similarity” is the key, in fact its really a matter of how inclusive the society is towards its immigrants. Were it not so, then muslims in the US and muslims in the UK would be equally non-assimilated.

Point 4 is true, bt has nothing to do with hispanics or muslims, but everything to do with eth attitude towardds immigrants in the US and Europe. This is an extension of my argument in teh previous para.

Definition of culture: ” the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group ”

Western Culture

Muslim Culture

… since you seem to think I made these concepts up.

Geez I hope I never get so caught up in my own ideology that I pretend such common and obvious concepts as these don’t exist because I don’t like what they mean to my ideology…

I stand by my analysis. I think it is blatantly obvious. A group of people who share myths, fashion, religion and history is, I think by definition, a “culture.”

As I said, there are cultures within cultures, but to say that because Russia and Spain have differences, they aren’t the same culture is to say that since Moscow and St. Petersberg have differences, they aren’t the same culture.

Also, I don’t see what you are whining about. Nowhere in any of my posts have I passed judment on the cultural impact of Hispanics on America or of Muslims on Europe. You read what you want into people’s comments. All I said is that the impact in the USA is likely to be less than the impact in Europe because the cultures involved are more similar in the USA than in Europe.

If that causes you despair, you must daily face despair from many facts of life. The fact that simple reality makes you despair is not my problem.

What facts do I have wrong Aziz? Please be specific since you are accusing me of being ignorant, stupid, racist or SOMETHING. Instead of some generic, vague attack because you don’t like the MESSAGE, let’s stick to the facts of the situation.

Do YOU believe that the cultural friction in Europe between Europeans and Muslims is less than the cultural friction in America between Hispanics and Americans?

Last time I checked, hispanics weren’t burning cars in Los Angeles every night.

Which of my assertions is causing you so much despair?

1. That Muslim culture is more different compared to European culture than Hispanic culture is compared to American culture?

2. That Muslim populations are growing in Europe MUCH faster than traditional European populations?

3. That cultural impacts when groups attempt to assimilate are more severe when the cultures are less alike?

4. That Muslims in Europe are assimilating less successfully than Hispanics in America?

Which of those is factually incorrect Aziz? Because that’s all I said in my post.

If “western culture” or “western civilization” has any meaning at all, its being destroyed by the attitudes of those who invoke Eurabia. That includes you, CC, in part, if you persist in these views, which are on teh wrong side of teh facts as well as the history of the civilization we both belong to.

“muslim culture” ? “european culture” ? nonsensical.

Here are some examples of why I think Western Culture is a definite “thing.” Some of it goes back to Roman and Greek roots. The “Czar” in Russia isn’t a derivative of “Caesar” for arbitrary reasons. Some of it goes even further back to language roots and mythological roots. Some of it is based on the spread of Christianity across most of the continent. Although there are very significant differences between Russian and Spanish “cultures” there are more similarities in my view. I guess we’ll just have to disagree on this, but note that I don’t condescend to you when I disagree with you. As far as using “antagonism” to demonstrate the differences in culture, it’s fairly well known that many of the most vicious wars are between cousins.

I also didn’t say that I haven’t HEARD that Hispanics won’t assimilate. Sure I’ve HEARD that. I just don’t AGREE with it.

As far as the Muslim monolith, again I think you and I are seeing things on different scales. Again I see family feuds and differences within the Muslim culture as a whole. But when people base their beliefs on the same book, and worship the same God, and claim to follow the same prophet, if that isn’t a “culture” then again, I don’t know what it is called. The fact that there is variation WITHIN the culture does not negate the commonality OF the culture.

Not to me anyway.

But I’ve met so many people who believe hispanic culture is alien and threatening and dangerous, I don’t even know where to begin counting, and I see an awful lot of differences myself. Those differences don’t bug me much, but they obviously bug a lot of other people. (Although I confess I think it’s mostly the language that’s their real issue, whether they’re conscious of it or not.)

Anti-immigrant sentiment in the United States has always, always, always been based on claims that this, that, or the other immigrant group is of a culture foreign to the United States. The argument against the Irish was very much based on that. The argument against the Italians was very much based on that. The argument against Mexican immigrants is often based on the very same assertions: their culture won’t assimilate with ours. I hear it all the time, I’m surprised you haven’t.

As for your belief in a Muslim monoculture: Oh, I can definitely see this mythical culture that’s entirely a product of limited media portrayals and general ignorance, yes. I’m surprised your’e caught up in this fantasy because you seem like too smart a guy for that. Don’t know what to do to help you with that, but I think doing some study of history would help, as would some study of what the various Muslim cultures of the world really look like; anyone who does can tell you there simply IS no single “Muslim” culture, that they’re as fractured as all the rest of us and many of them can’t stand each other. Their modes of dress, their ways of worship, their languages, their music, their systems of government–all wildly different wherever you go around the world, with far more differences than similarities.

But if you believe the fantasy, and you want to grip tightly onto that fantasy, well, I guess there’s not much I can do to shake you out of it. ;-)

You express surprise that I consider American and Mexican culture to be similar. Well, I do. I try to look at things from an objective perspective, and when I do, I see far more similarity between Americans and Mexicans than I see differences, both in terms of cultural practices and in terms of shared history.

I’m sure there are plenty of people who would be shocked to hear that I consider Canadians and Americans to be quite similar too.

You can express all the surprise you want that I consider there to be a “European” culture. There’s a REASON colleges taught “Western Civilization” as a class and as a concept for hundreds of years. Because it’s rather obviously TRUE that Europe is a culture. Sure you can say that people ARGUED differently, but when French daughters were routinely married off to English sons, and Polish were married off to German, and Russian to whatever… eventually virtually ALL of the royal families of Europe were joined in blood. If that don’t make a cultural foundation, I dunno what does.

I concur with your point about assimilation. I know it is hard for some people to believe, but Hispanics are assimilating into American culture, and bringing some cultural aspects of their own with them. Sure there is some friction and some people will go apeshit over anything, but we ARE assimilating. Just as we did with the Irish and the German and the Polish, etc… That’s a great strength of this country.

On the other hand I don’t think that the lack of assimilation of Muslims into European culture is necessarily entirely the fault of the Europeans. There looks to me to be a strong desire NOT to assimilate in many cases between Muslims and Europeans.

What I find interesting is that I don’t think that’s nearly as true here in the USA. For whatever reason I do think that Muslims here are assimilating much more than in Europe. I’m not sure if that’s because the USA is better at encouraging assimilation, or if the Muslims who immigrate here tend to be those who are more likely to assimilate. But I am glad that it’s true.

I have a couple of good friends who are Muslim, and throughout the travails of the past decade, we have never exchanged a harsh word. I’ve greatly enjoyed their company and I hope the same is true on their side. I believe they are more representative of American Muslims than some people would admit to be the case.