Even if it’s true. Which it almost certainly ain’t.
Anyone who doubts there are nutjobs in all parts of the political world need look no further than these folks. Good for Ace for noticing. The President is The President. Move on, people.
Defending the liberal tradition in history, science, and philosophy.
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Hawaii still has not shown John Q. Public an ORIGINAL birth certificate nor original birth forms.
The Original birth record exists. State of Hawaii has said so.
So let’s see it. End the nonsense.
Why is that SO difficult ?
The reason Obama has not publicly released his birth certificate is that it probably won’t stop the charges of being born out of state and will instead escalate them. It is likely that Obama’s birth certificate is not a standard “Child X was born in hospitaly Y, signed by delivering doctor Z”.
Instead it is likely to be one of the three or four OTHER kinds of birth certificates which can be requested in a variety of ways which do not provide any real provenance about the birth. So if the actual birth certificate is produced people will say “LOOK! This wasn’t filed until 1962! It has no attending physician! It was just requested after the fact by the grandmother! This PROVES he wasn’t really born in Hawaii.”
Of course it proves nothing of the kind, but what it ALSO will not prove is that Obama was born in Hawaii.
So releasing it will just fan the flames. So it won’t be released.
As far as I’m concerned, Obama could have been born on Mars, as long as his mother was an American, I’m fine with his credentials. The whole thing rests on the single technicality that his mother was not 18 when Obama was born, which is, in my opinion, a flaw in the law anyway. What magical thing happens when a woman turns 18 that makes her children American citizens?
I’ve said before that it is quite plausible that Obama was not born in Hawaii, but there is no point to pursuing this. Those who compare “birthers ” to “9/11 truthers” are way off base. The more accurate comparison is to liberals who went nutzo over Bush’s supposedly being awol in the National Guard. Both cases even have forged “official documents” that have been created and published.
Sure, I sympathize with those who say “but it’s completely plausible” and I personally think it’s much more plausible than the Bush AWOL story.
But so friggin what?
I think that the nonpartisan FactCheck.org people pretty definitively laid this to rest, McK. The State of Hawaii doesn’t use the “long form” and doesn’t keep it. The State Department prefers that you use the form used by the State you were born in, and the so-called “short” form is what Obama’s home State uses.
At this point, it’s up to those who suggest there’s something fishy here to go back to the original hospital and ask them about it. There’s no reason why we should expect Obama to even HAVE this obscure document, or care about it. It’s entirely likely his mother lost it 40+ years ago and didn’t care because no one cared about it.
Mind you, I admit to a passing curiosity. If someone finds it, fine. But it’s not incumbent upon the President to show it, any more than it’s incumbent upon President Bush to provide every missing record from his National Guard file (to speak of another bit of lame political silliness…)
Dean:
I agree with most of what you said except the bit about “Factcheck.org” being nonpartisan.
Yeah, they are LESS partisan than other organizations, but I don’t consider them NON partisan, and particularly when it comes to Obama, I don’t trust them. It is VERY telling that their own analysis where they “touched, poked, prodded and licked” the original certificate ONLY says that it meets the US State Department’s guidelines for citizenship, and NOT that it proves Obama was born in Hawaii.
Proving it meets the requirements for US State Department citizenship is NOT the same thing as “proves birth in the US” and EVERY instance of a person who has “seen” the original document ends up parsing in this sort of legaleze, which is why I think it’s one of the less reliable birth certificates, which are nonetheless LEGAL and BINDING.
The reason Obama has not publicly released his birth certificate is that it PROBABLY won’t stop the charges of being born out of state and will instead escalate them.
Another example of faux omniscience by CC.
Heh, McK, we’ll see how “faux” it turns out to be if we ever actually see it. Seems like my comment says “likely” and “probably” and “plausible” to me McK. I don’t claim omniscience, I claim plausibility.
Another example of McK’s personal attacks because his meds didn’t kick in.
You ppl are too funny.
Please pass the ‘plausibility’ ORIGINAL documents.
The State of Hawaii has already told us, that they have them.
What’s the hold up ?
The State of Hawaii says they have them? OK. Got a link to confirm that one?
McK: I TOLD you what the most likely cause of the “hold up” is. It’s not my fault that your personal dislike of me clouds your rational thinking on subjects. I have to admit, it doesn’t do much for my opinion of YOU that you ask a question on a blog, and when someone attempts to provide a plausible answer, you insult them in a childish manner. But I try to get past that.
Quote:
“I … have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural-born American citizen,” Health Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino said in a brief statement.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/07/28/politics/main5193109.shtml
cc,
It isn’t personal. The State of Hawaii HAVE told us they HAVE the vital records.
Lets see them. Is that unreasonable ?
I think it’s completely reasonable McK. I just can’t help but apply Occam’s Razor to things like this and when I do, the most plausible answer I get is that we won’t see the original because while it provides the LEGAL basis for Obama’s citizenship, it will not settle the debate. So I checked into whether such a situation COULD exist, and in fact, in Hawaii when Obama was born, it very well COULD exist because there are four, I think, “official” birth certificates you can get in Hawaii and only ONE of them has an attending physician and hospital, which is what most people think of as a “birth certificate.” There were three OTHER ways to get a birth certificate at that time, and one of them was as simple as Obama’s parent or grandparents simply requesting one ON THEIR OWN ASSERTION that the baby was born in Hawaii. That sort of “birth certificate” could have been issued as much as a year after Obama’s birth and does not require a doctor or midwife’s signature. All that is required is for the official who receives the request to CERTIFY that it is valid.
I think the evidence is pretty strong that is the sort of birth certificate Obama has, and that’s why we won’t see it.
What’s so hard to understand about that?
CC,
Only States CAN issue birth certificates. That certificate must be ATTESTED to by the attending physician or a through legal testament under sworn oath by a relative. I might add, NOT by a WORKER in the Department of Vital Statistics.
In 1938 or whenever the Congress passed the Social Security Act, working people could not get a Social Security Number unless their birth was attested to by a relative. Example. My father born 1898 never had a birth certificate until the 1940′s when his employer required one by law, so he subsequently obtained his by virtue of an attestment from his aging Aunt in another state who verified his birth in front of a Judge.
In my son’s case, he was born out of country and was nearly prohibited from playing Little League Baseball because we could not produce a birth certificate. All he had was a paper of registration of live birth abroad issued by a US Embassy. After two years residence we applied for and got recognition from Dept of State, that he is in fact is a US citizen.
So, all your conjecturing about probability and plausibility and most plausible and requesting one simply on ASSERTION of GIVE US ONE is bogus at best.
Why is it unreasonable that Obama shouldn’t be able to present a birth certificate issued before 2007 ?
Dear State of Hawaii,
Please present the ORIGINAL documents.
Geez McK, sometimes I can’t tell if you are being deliberately obtuse or if you seriously can’t comprehend plain logic.
Whatever, go ahead and keep demanding that someone do something that is clearly not in his best interest when he clearly has every legal right not to do so.
No skin off my nose.
And like I said, it doesn’t even matter to me if he was born in Kenya or not. His mother was a US citizen and in my book that makes him a US citizen. I am not interested in pursuing wild technicalities that result because some pregnant girl happened to be 17 instead of 18.
My only point in this is that I’m sick of the birthers being compared to true lunatics like 9/11 truthers. I think they have a legitimate issue and some plausible reason to want to see the original document, and so far as I know, they aren’t accusing Obama of murdering 3,000+ US citizens to hide his real birth certificate.
What really makes me shake my head McK, is that based on your repeated pointless demands for Hawaii to produce Obama’s birth certificate, you seem to qualify as a “birther” and I am actually DEFENDING birthers and yet you decide to repeatedly attack me.
OK, I guess you win. You are a nutcase. The whole thing is nothing but a bunch of whining losers grasping at conspiracy stories to try to grab some slim hope of reversing the outcome of the election through proof of some nefarious decades long plot. You have convinced me. I won’t defend you any more.
End the nonsense.
Why would he want to? End the nonsense, that is. When your opponents are acting like fools, what possible reason is there to try to stop them?
i think it worth mentioning that 12% of North Carolina Republicans don’t think Hawai’i is part of the United States. So we truly are in a realm of total insanity which facts do nothing to calm. CC is right – even if the long-form certificate proves everything solid without a shadow of a doubt (and I think that it would, if it existed, which it doesn’t), it wouldnt end the birther nonsense, it would just inflane it more. At least 12% of NC Republicans woudl still believe at least.
and that fine with me – i hope Palin embraces birthers publicly in 2012. that would be great.
Yeah, Aziz, I’m sure that’s on her list of things to do.
But I’m glad you feel free to imply you want Palin to fail in her political endeavors. Hopefully more people on the left will learn from your example and not get their knickers in a twist when conservatives say they want Obama to fail.
What I love is that Aziz presents numbers of NC Republicans who don’t know Hawaii is a state, how does that compare with NC Democrats? (or Mississipi Democrats?) who knows? Who cares, Aziz slimes Republicans with no desire to compare and contrast with Democrats. I might even end up wondering if he’s hiding the Democrat numbers….
Whenever someone tries to “prove” that the members of one party are STUPIDER than the members of the other party, I know that their level of partisanship has reached the pathologically rabid stage.
Well, yeah, there’s that.
Why not release the birth certificate?
“Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.” – Napoleon
Right now, people are looking silly going on about this point.
Why would he give that up? Anything to discredit his enemy.
Meantime, keep dancing like a marionette. Serve Him, even in claimed opposition. It seems to suit you.
Well, I’ve been clobbered here and elsewhere for defending birthers before, but until my tete-a-tete with McK up above, I felt it was still important to defend the rationality and sanity of birthers when compared with 9/11 Truthers.
McK convinced me that my effort has been misguided, so as of now I’m off the birther thing entirely. It never mattered to me personally if Obama was born in Kenya or not, and I no longer feel compelled to defend those who feel there is an issue to pursue.
So thanks, McK, you helped me see the futility of defending the irrational.
Caution:
Jerome Corsi Alert:
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=106137
“Hawaii state Sen.Will Espero, a Democrat, has confirmed plans to introduce legislation through which the state’s lawmakers would force the public disclosure of all President Obama’s birth documents held by the Hawaii Department of Health, including President Obama’s long-form original birth certificate.
Espero told WND his bill is aimed at “giving citizens access to birth records” under a standard of government transparency which would permit journalists to request in writing the public disclosure of vital birth records including long-form birth certificates of all persons born in Hawaii. He said it would include the release of birth records on those previously born in Hawaii.
“My decision to file the legislation was primarily a result of the fuss over President Obama’s birth records and the lingering questions,” Espero said.
LOL, well, in the remote chance that this bill actually becomes law, I guess we’ll see how “omniscient” my comment was.
Orp,
You do mean plausibility, right ?
Aziz,
“and that fine with me – i hope Palin embraces birthers publicly in 2012. that would be great.”
Why do you say this?
He’s saying it because he believes the Birthers are an embarrassment to the Right and it will make any Republican candidate look like a kook to the voters.
Kevin, of course conservatives want Obama to fail. Thats because fundamentally they disagree with him about the policy that is needed to make things better for America, present and future. If you believe that there needs to be an authentic range of political opinion in this country, generating debate on the issues such that the best ideas from left and right can compete, then that field of ideas needs to be well -represented. But you still can and should root for the ideas you believe in to prevail, and do your part in the public debate by articulating your view and trying to convince others.
Id hate it if there were no conservative challenges to Obama’s policy agenda. I want him to win. But i want him to have to earn it.
Which is why I am frankly surprised that any conservative would not want to distance themselves immediately from all this Birther nonsense, which is really just malicious and not a policy disagreement at all.
Paul, i want Palin to embrace birthers because I still believe that the vast majority of citizens recognize birtherism for what it is – maklicious hate rather than genuine political opposition. I want the GOP to field candidates like McCain or Jeb Bush, who will articulate conservative values as a real choice.
A cynic will reply to me that Palin, by embracing birthers, is more likely to win, not less. That worries me but I have faith in the people.
oh I see, it’s personal, you just want to see Palin fail and look as stupid as possible.
Fair enough, I think she is a dolt as well, but it never occurred to me to actively root for her (or any American politician) to embrace stupid positions.
Aziz:
… you finally have completely lost me when you assert that John McCain “articulates conservative values….”
I suppose his values are “conservative” when compared to yours but McCain is not a legitimate conservative. Besides all the pathetic “reaching across the aisle” while abandoning true conservative principles, his work on McCain-Feingold free-speech limiting legislation officially removed him from any claim to “conservatism” in my book.
I very relucantly pulled his lever on election day not because I wanted to, but because I would have voted for Hillary Clinton over Barack Obama.
… and just for the record, the name “Sarah Palin” made it MUCH easier to do than it otherwise would have been. If I were the bumper sticker type, the one I would have had on my car last year would have been “PALIN/mccain”.
You all continue to misunderestimate Sarah Palin’s intelligence, savvy and appeal at your own peril.
Now I’m not saying that I am a great fan of Sarah Palin, but she at least does occasionally actually “articulate conservative values” unlike her running mate. Yes, I think she needs some polish, but I think it will be easier to polish her, than to turn someone like McCain into an actual conservative.
If I thought Jeb Bush had any chance to cast aside the “legacy” of the Bush name and be an effective campaigner, I would like to see more of him. He also occasionally “articulates conservative values.” In fact, I used to like him a lot.
… by the way, one of the best ways to identify the pseudo-intellectual elitist dilettantes in BOTH parties is to listen to them diss Sarah Palin. There is not much else in the political lexicon today that so accurately identifies the elitist pseudo-intellectual.
… for the most part, they are the same people who snickered at Ronald (“Bedtime for Bonzo”) Reagan’s candidacy back in the 70s.
Aziz…
It’s not that I want Obama to fail…
it’s that I believe the majority of his policies are doomed to fail.
I would just prefer the failure be “fail to implement” rather than “producing horrific outcomes”.
Aziz:
Well, I’m more than happy to admit that I want Obama to fail, and to fail spectacularly. I want him to go down in history as Jimmy Carter on crack. I want him to fail so badly that Americans don’t trust another radical leftist until my kids are grown, and their kids are grown.
Other than that I wish him the best.
It’s not that I want Obama to fail…
it’s that I believe the majority of his policies are doomed to fail.
I would just prefer the failure be “fail to implement” rather than “producing horrific outcomes”.
I totally understand that and respect it. All I can tell you is, you need to 1. have faith in the system, and 2. give Obama some benefit of the doubt for not being a rigid ideologue bent on proving his vision oif liberal orthodoxy right no matter the cost. Those who fail to do #1 are cynics who can never be satisfied. Those who fail to do #2 were rightfully diagnosed with BDS from around November 2000 to.. well, the present, really. once you get a DSA you are stuck with it, like herpes.
Had McCain won, I too would want his political failure, but i would be rooting for his policy to be right and succeed despite my fervent belief that they were the wrong policy. I didnt want McCain the President to fail, though, and I never wanted Bush to fail either.
Im not judging you but i am phrasing your sentiment – which i fully understand – in a manner that I think is more appropriate.
LOL, Aziz, you crack me up. Obama not a rigid idealogue?
Bwahahahahahaaaaaaa!!!!!
Go on, pull the other one.
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