And now, for something completely different…..
I’ve got an issue that’s been troubling me for weeks. It’s probably better suited for Amy Alkon, but I figured I’d see what my some of you folks might think.
And warning! This involves pornography, so if that’s something that offends you, you might want to stop reading now.
A month or so ago, I followed a link from Instapundit to a story about some folks blogging about their sex lives in NYC (I can’t seem to find that entry now). In that story, there was mention of a free porn site I hadn’t heard of. So, being the red blooded American guy that I am, I decided to check out that site. I’m not a regular consumer of porn, but I do occasionally like to see what folks are up to in the “real” world…
The site is basically a porn version of youtube, with folks uploading videos of themselves doing things they couldn’t do in public, and then rating each other and chatting about it. Not much original there. But it is FREE PORN!
I spent about 5 minutes poking around, when I noticed a username that contained a reference to a town near here. So I clicked on that account, and up popped a bunch of thumbnails for the videos this person submitted.
And what did I see?
Pictures of my friend’s wife!
In hind sight, I should have hit the exit button right then…
I always thought she was extremely attractive, and she’s a bit flirty. Yes, I’ve “lusted in my heart” on a few occasions. I just had to see what was up with the videos. So I watched them.
Over and over again….
It was some very explicit, hard core action, taped and uploaded by the guy she was performing with.
OK, I’m still not 100% certain that it is indeed my friend’s (and coworker too, BTW) wife. But I’m close. Maybe 99%.
It sounds like her, and she shows some similar affectations. I’ve compared the video side by side with some photos. And every feature I can identify matches up perfectly. Unfortunately, the video is a bit grainy, so I can’t be 100% certain at this point. Plus who knows, maybe she’s got a twin sister or body double out there….
And now, that moral dilemma: The guy she is having sex with is NOT my friend!
I read the story associated with the clips. The performer/recorder claims he hooked up with her in a web cam chat room a couple months earlier, and they discovered that they were only an hour’s drive apart. So they planned to get together when they could work it out.
Well, my friend lives about an hour away from the pornographer. And he was out of town on business travel for two weeks at the time the video was made (10 months ago). So that all adds up.
I’ve been friends with the guy (and his wife, actually) for more than 10 years, and now I’m torn. Should I try to let him know about what I’ve found?
My instinct is to MYOB, and just try to forget about it. It might not actually be her. And if it is, heck, maybe he already knows, and is cool with it.
But I can’t help but feeling as if I have an obligation to say something.
And now this Tiger Woods crap is keeping it fresh in my mind practically 24/7 now. And as fate would have it, I’ll be together with both of them next week at our company’s Christmas party!
I’ve toyed with the idea of sending him anonymous email with a link to the videos. He is a bit of a porn dog himself….. And while I’m not able to ID her with 100% certainty, I’m sure he could. The woman in the videos has some very distinct moles on her breast.
Or maybe I should say something to her?
Or ????
Oh, the wages of sin….
Anybody have any advice????
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1. It is none of your business.
2. Stop watching porn, it could happen again.
I would just forget about it.
Do you think she was aware the video was made?
I would tell your friend. He deserves to know, no matter how you found out. I would want my friend to tell me and I would feel obligated to tell a friend of mine if I had this kind of information.
J1,
Yes she absolutely knew it was being made. The guy held the camera up to her face a few times.
Do NOT say a word… now, or ever.
This is definitely not your business. You could be mistaken and open up a can of worms for you and everybody else.
I’m with the Aggie – I think you should tell him. However, I think it should be absolutely anonymous. In fact, I would probably solicit a commenter here that you’re reasonably certain is a woman to write the text of any email you send with the link, to reduce the likelihood of word, style or punctuation characteristics that could concievably be associated with you.
General rule — do nothing. MYOB.
Exception: Depends how close you are to your friend.
If he is a dear friend, and you have a lot invested in the relationship, and you plan on having a future, you should strongly consider telling him.
If he’s anything less, MYOB.
My thoughts.
–HB
J1,
That’s an interesting idea. I won’t be asking Trudy or Ruth to participate though!
I do appreciate all of you taking the time to comment.
Like I said, my first instinct is to forget about it, shut up, and move on. And I almost always go with my first instinct with stuff like this.
The video has been out there for 10 months already, and I’ve been pondering it for about a month, so I don’t think there is any need for me to rush to any kind of action just yet. I’m mostly trying to resolve my internal conflicts on the issue at this point.
Hank, that’s a very good point too. I wouldn’t describe him as a dear friend. Just a guy I know from work. We’ve gone to a few rock concerts and football games together over the years, but other then that, all of our associations have been work related. And to be honest, I consider him to be something of a dullard, and he tends to get himself into some stupid situations.
Long term, I wouldn’t be too upset if just went away, so to speak.
I’ve never had a friend who was good enough to tell me when I was getting screwed over. I’ve had to work it out on my own. I’m kinda slow about it (like your friend, I guess).
Ruth and others would leave me twisting in the wind.
I bleed all over you. Mix some of that in with your righteous MYOB.
I understand the urge to MYOB. But let’s make a little analogy. And it’s stretched a bit; but I’m trying to remove the sex angle for the moment, because I think that it colors our perceptions.
Kim and Ken are a couple; but what Kim doesn’t know is that Ken has a major gambling habit. He loses a lot at the track; but he hides it from her well. She seems happy; and you know that if she knew, it would be emotionally traumatic for her. You fear it could hurt her far worse than ignorance would.
But as part of how he hides the losses, Ken has been buying groceries on the cheap. He has gone to questionable sources, shady characters who are trying to unload stolen goods and other stuff they just can’t offer for legitimate sale. In fact, some of the meat was processed in a plant that has been shut down for numerous serious health violations: salmonella, botulism, Legionnaire’s, the works.
Now not all the meat from that plant has been contaminated. Lots of it is probably safe. But you really just don’t know.
So… Do you tell Kim not to eat the hamburger that could make her violently ill, maybe even kill her? Or for the sake of MYOB, do you keep quiet, and just hope the food’s not contaminated? And if she gets ill or dies because you didn’t warn her, how culpable are you?
If you saw her with a guy at a movie theater or something, I would say MYOB. He could’ve been a cousin or something, and you would have no concrete sign of any wrongdoing. But what you saw leaves no reasonable doubt (other than your somewhat strained efforts to say it might not be her). For your friend’s safety, he needs to see that video.
I beg to disagree. Doesn’t sound to me like he knows this guy very well. How do you think Jay would feel if he told his friend and he went home and went ballistic on his wife?
I don’t know that you even need to remove the sex angle. I’ll probably get hammered for being such a prude, but making videos of yourself having sex and posting them online is deranged. If it is this guy’s wife, he needs to know that she is, basically, insane. I suspect he knows or suspects that already if it’s her, but it could be what pushes him to address the issue on way or another.
That all assumes a couple of things:
1. This post is real, and not some sort of joke or experiment.
2. The woman in the tape really is the guy’s wife.
3. The guy is not ok with, or even in on this sort of thing.
4. Finally, as a corollary of sorts to 3, that you’re watching amateur, not professional porn.
In his song “Can’t Watch This”, Weird Al sang about America’s Funniest Home Videos: “Somebody’s poor old mom fell down off the roof, landed right on the lawn, face first, on a rake. I hear they got it on the 17th take”.
I’d take the story about this video with a boulder of salt. Is it possible your friend’s wife is a porn actress?
Yeah, let’s assume the worst of the victim for the benefit of the perpretrator. He might do something wrong, so let’s ignore the fact that she is doing something wrong that risks his life.
We can do hypotheticals all night long. Hypothetically, the guy might beat her. Hypothetically, facing up to this will strengthen their marriage and lead to happiness and unicorns.
Meanwhile, it’s not a hypothetical that this man is at risk of venereal disease and doesn’t know about it. Unless jaymaster has misidentified the woman, that’s a fact. The best way to assess that risk is for the man to see the video and make an identification for himself. The best outcome jaymaster should hope for is the guy says, “That’s not my wife, you moron!” And then they have a big laugh. The second best outcome jaymaster can hope for is the guy hates him forever, and is fortunately disease-free and healthy for a really long hate.
And you might argue that there’s no proof the woman is risking disease; but frankly, any married person who lets himself or herself be recorded cheating is either a risk junkie or too stupid to take proper precautions.
If this were a case of spotting the woman in a plausibly innocent situation, I would say MYOB. I’ve done exactly that in a circumstance I won’t discuss: it looked suspicious, but there were too many plausible and innocent explanation. I kept quiet.
But here, there’s no room for interpretation. If that’s her in the video, the guy needs to get tested and take precautions.
J1,
Your points 3 and 4 are pretty important. There may be knowledge and even approval on the husband’s part. “My cheating wife” seems to be a fantasy for some guys. I don’t understand it; but I guess I lack imagination in these things.
You have a point about VD, but I’m a bit tainted by my own real life drama at the moment.
My idiot new co-worker broke up with her live-in bf. When I asked, when is he moving out – I got back. Oh no he’s staying, we’re still really good friends, we’re just going to be roommates.
Yeah – o.k.
One week later she comes in all excited. “I have a date!!” Then she spends the rest of the night chatting on FB with her “roommate” and doesn’t understand why he’s giving her a hard time about her date!
Uhhhhhhhhh. It’s only been a week – ding dong.
3 days later he beat the crap out her. (her version) After all the stuff I’ve read from Trudy for all I know she started it.
Now he’s out.
Oh – she had a really nice date. Isn’t that sweet?
People are morons and I’m staying as far out of this one’s drama as I can get.
As told – this porn story has a lot of unknowns. If he’s compelled to do something I advise he tread very carefully.
What if the guy goes ballistic on Jay and not the wife?
Wow, you guys are bringing up some points of view I never considered. And the benefit to me is exceeding my best case expectations. Thanks again.
Now,
Martin,
The disease angle is a good one. There was no protection used in the videos. And in fact one commenter asked the film maker (paraphrasing here), “Dude! How do you get these chicks to have sex with out a condom?” And his response was something like, “ I wash up good before and after and I keep my hair cut short.” Yikes….
And your choice of a gambling allegory is interesting too, though somewhat in reverse.
My buddy told me a few weeks ago that his wife spends every Friday night at the local slots parlor (which we’ve only had here for a year or so). Hmmm, I had to wonder if that where she really is spending her time.
Maggie,
I think I know him very well. I worked with him for about a year 12 years ago. And then I took a job elsewhere. I lobbied hard to hire him at my current employer about 10 years ago. So I’ve spent practically 40 hours a week with him since then. And I’ve been kind of a mentor to him. He’s a good guy, and a real bulldog, just not so smart. Not to be arrogant, but I can figure out stuff in a day or two that will take him a month. So I just point him in a direction, and he goes and gets stuff done.
That being said, I’ve pulled his chestnuts out of the fire 10-15 times after he’s screwed up at work. And he’s never done the same for me. But it’s all been positive for the company, so I’m cool with that. And I’m not a quid pro quo kind of guy, so if I have to rescue him again tomorrow, I’ll do it.
And some further info:
They have no kids. She’s a programmer, he’s an engineer. Both probably make $70-80k a year.
J1,
One other thing I gathered from the comments is that she didn’t want the guy to make her face visible in the video, but he said she signed some kind of release, so he posted it all.
Maggie,
I just read your concern about him possibly going violent against me personally. Again, that’s something I never would have considered!
And I was even starting to think that maybe the best approach might be to sit down and have a face to face with him .
Oy vey….
maggie,
I understand where you’re coming from. I once had the “pleasure” of evicting a steelworker from his home after he broke his girlfriend’s arm (me against a steelworker, go ahead and laugh), only to have her go back to him the next week. I understand that violence (and stupidity) happens sometimes in relationships.
If the woman were doing anything else — heck, if she were posing nude but not having sex — I would say to steer clear. But the risk of disease crosses a line for me.
Morality isn’t just good for the soul, it’s hygienic!
Not for nothing Jay but I once worked side by side with a girl for years. I went to her wedding. She was divorced for over a year before I found out. I would mention her husband (usually singing his praises) and she would just nod, finally one day she just told me. The divorce wasn’t pretty and he had ruined her financially and she just got tired of me saying nice things about him.
How well do your really think you know this guy?
Martin – you’re singing my song. I’m all for morality, fidelity and hygeine.
I also find that old fuddy duddy’s like us are a rare breed these days.
Maggie,
I know him well enough to know I’ll have the jump on him! I’m always packing, and he’s an ammophobe.
But be that as it may, I have seen him lose his temper in a very nasty way one or twice.
I’ll keep that in mind (thanks to you), but I’m honestly starting to think that mano-y-mano, face-to-face approach might be the best way to address this issue.
jaymaster,
It’s taking a mighty effort for me to avoid the double entendre possibilities of Friday night slots; but that aside, it sounds like he could be at even more disease risk than the one video would indicate.
No kids is a bonus in a case like this, of course: no additional victims here. Both being well-compensated professionals, he shouldn’t have to worry about support. You might do him a favor by archiving a copy of that video, just in case he draws the short straw and the court tries to stick him with unfair support costs. I’m a strong proponent of child support, and at least sympathetic to spousal support in the right circumstances; but if she’s a high earner and she’s in the wrong, these ain’t the right circumstances.
“One other thing I gathered from the comments is that she didn’t want the guy to make her face visible in the video, but he said she signed some kind of release, so he posted it all.”
Eh. Maybe. But people lie a lot in these circumstances. After all, if this site is all about amateur porn, what amateurs have release forms? Honestly, this statement lends weight to J1′s theory that this might be professional porn.
And now I’m embarrassed I didn’t spend the extra 10 minutes to find the damn link to the Instapundit post I mentioned …
http://pajamasmedia.com/instapundit/89505/
maggie,
Heh. Reminds me of a favorite Heinlein quote: “It’s amazing how much ‘mature wisdom’ resembles being too tired.”
Martin,
I tried to grab the video, but I can’t figure out how to do it. All I could manage was some static screen shots.
I know how to grab me some youtube video, but something is different here.
I’ll send you a link off line, if we can figure out how to do that at this point…..
jaymaster,
I’m far from an expert in matters of online video; but I recently picked up a copy of Roxio so that I could burn labels on Lightscribe disks. It was the recommended tool for Lightscribe labels, but I hated to pay $80 for it. Why would I need all those features like capturing and recording Internet video?
It’s like once you have a tool, you’ll find a need for that tool sooner or later. But this is one I never would’ve guessed!
Or maybe not. Roxio eludes me. It tells me to launch my browser and it will start capturing. I have my browser open already, video playing. Roxio doesn’t seem to know. Time to RTFM, I guess.
The Angel on my shoulder tells me to advise you just drop it. Pretende you never saw it and hope things work themselves out. This is probably the right thing to do.
The Devil on my shoulder tells me to bring up the video on his monitor when no one is looking so he can judge for himself. He may have his suspicions but he can’t TRULY pin it on you.
Your call. :)
“One other thing I gathered from the comments is that she didn’t want the guy to make her face visible in the video, but he said she signed some kind of release, so he posted it all”
“I know how to grab me some youtube video, but something is different here”
So we’ve got some sort of Penthouse forum story about a signed release and copy protected video?
The conversation with your friend is not “I think your wife is having an affair”, but “how much does your wife make doing this?”
jrogge,
I like the way your devil thinks. I could pull that off, because he is notorious for leaving his pc unlocked at the end of the day.
Not sure if our corporate nanny filter would let him access the site though….
If you do tell him, leave him a veneer of deniability. Frame it more like, “doesn’t this chick look just like xxx? Isn’t that wild? She’s almost an identical twin!”. That lets him laugh it off if he wants to deny it publicly.
Phelps, have I mentioned you’re a genius? That’s a great suggestion.
Yes, Phelps, that is a great idea.
I’ve decided I’m not going to do anything this week at least. I want to see if I pick up any vibes or what have you at our party next weekend.
Phelps,
That is a great idea. If it absolutely must be told that is the way to do it. And it is possible it is a twin. I have an identical twin and when I first moved back to our hometown where she lived I was always running into people who thought I was her. I spoke to everybody who even looked like the were going to speak to me because I didn’t want to insult any of her friends who didn’t know me. Now she does the same because we don’t run in the same circles. It definitely leaves it up to questions as a maybe lookalike.
Assuming it is his wife, he NEEDS to know. He doesn’t need to know a co-worker, friend, or casual acquaintenance knows. That would at least color and maybe sour any future interaction with him.
I’d leave a sealed, anonymous note saying that you saw someone that looks like his wife at the URL and whatever label the video has on the site. Then drop it.
Since this is information that you stumbled upon accidentally, I might offer the suggestion that you might forget about it accidentally since it is really none-of-your-business and does not require any response in your status as an employee.
Should you wish to make moral decisions, please do so privately and then kindly trash them without trace. I would further offer the suggestion that any action beyond this will be psychologically intrusive in an arena within which you have zero authorization.
Just my two cents worth.
I don’t see getting the info to the husband as a moral judgement, he just needs to know. If this behavior is acceptable to him, no harm no foul. If this behavior is not acceptable to him, he can only communicate his objections if he knows.
They might be OK as is, they might want to split over it, they might decide not to split with some changes in the relationship, he might decide kids are not a good idea, he might want to get tested. But they need to have a basis for an informed decisions and actions no matter what it is/they are, and big secrets damage a relationship.
If you were in your friend’s position, would you want to be told?
There’s your answer.
jaymaster:
You mentioned that they weren’t using protection in the video. Somebody mentioned the risk of disease. There is a bigger risk though: Her getting pregnant and trying to pass the baby off as her husband’s. Then he would be royally screwed over. Letting him know, one way or the other, is definitely the right thing to do here.
Flying squirrel,
Well, it’s debatable whether that is a bigger risk then, say, acquiring AIDS.
But it is in fact a risk, and one I hadn’t previously considered.
Thanks for the input.
This is still eating holes in my stomach. But I will make a decision after our party together this weekend, and move on.
To all of the people concerned about diseases:
All actors in porn films, be they amateur or professional (and this sounds pro if she signed a release) MUST be tested no more than 30 days prior to shooting. No ifs ands or buts. This is the law, and being a porn actress myself, I would know.
That being said, your friend needs to know if he doesn’t already…and it’ll probably be easier coming from you than if his dad found the site.
You MUST tell the man, you might consider the anonymous note (not an anon email which he may delete out of hand thinking it is spam.) as one way of telling him in order to allow him to save face, but there are so very many reasons why he MUST be told it is simply beyond the pale for you not to.
You mention that you are a CHL holder. If you saw a woman being held up at gunpoint, would you not feel obligated to intervene? You certainly SHOULD feel so obligated. We all have a duty to each other as human beings.
Disease, unwanted pregnancy/getting stuck paying child support for a child that is not his (in Texas for instance, it does not matter if you can prove the kid isn’t yours, you still gotta pay until the kid is 18.) and the simple embarrassment, after all, YOU found the video, it is not beyond the realm of possibility that someone else who knows him or her might find it as well.
You might consider approaching HER about it with an ultimatum: Either SHE tells him, or you do.
I’m coming late to this. This is a horrible position to be in, no question. By the time you read this you may have already made your decision but I’m guessing not simply because probably after the party you’ll still be thinking on it.
There are deep flaws to any form of action here. And, no action at all is an action.
The other comments have all been good. Although I definitely feel what Flying Squirrel is talking about–this guy could also wind up “father” to a kid not his, without knowing. Although that may seem unlikely from a video 10 months old, in fact this behavior could be habitual on her part.
Also I would point out, these supposed amateurs are frequently not really amateurs.
OTOH I would also underscore, this could be -totally- a freak occurrence, and it might not be her no matter how sure you are.
But ultimately I agree with Freeven: would you want to be told? Then there’s your answer.
I have to say, the anonymous note doesn’t work. It has its benefits, but, what you create there is even worse potential for hazard. Now you create a guy who’s embarrassed, paranoid, wondering “when the other shoe will drop,” etc. Who is this person leaving these notes? Are they laughing at you? Are they showing other people? Will they? Etc.
I’d say you gotta bite the bullet and take him aside and speak to him privately. Very privately. And what I suggest is that you meet him somewhere outside the office and when you are NOT near a computer. Coffee shop, bar, somewhere like that. And just say, “look, I may be totally wrong, I may be crazy, and I swear I am not laughing at you, and I am not telling other people, and not going to tell other people EVER, but I saw this and if it were me I’d want to know and I hope you’d do the same for me, and, while I may be totally totally wrong I think you should know I found this, and so if you want to look you can, or if you want to tell me to fuck off you can do that too and we will never, ever ever speak of it again if you want. I’ll mind my own business and never bring it up again.”
Ideally you write the address on a napkin for him. If that’s not practical, well, print out the URL and hand it to him.
It is entirely possible still that this will not go well. He may hold it against you. He may go nuts and do something stupid. All that will suck. Those potential down sides, in my opinion, are outweighed by the potential down sides of inaction. And once he’s told, responsibility for his actions are HIS responsibility. But you can be there for him as a caring person to help talk him out of the trees if he goes nuts.
I think the most important thing here is that you AVOID the situation where you’re sitting together looking at this thing. He should be able to view this thing in private and have time to digest it without you there looking at him and the awkward situation of having to talk while he’s deciding what he thinks.
I am seriously, seriously glad this is not my problem. I feel for you.
By the way, I also suggest that regardless of your actions, you go ahead and delete this entire thread. Unless it turns out to be something mildly humorous, like, he says, “Oh, hahahaha, that’s her sister, she does this all the time.” Or something like that where you really determine this is harmless. But if the guy’s even slightly traumatized, this thread needs to disappear. Although it is a great thread wrestling with a complex moral issue, and thus worth preserving on that score, him just knowing it’s there–even if your name is anonymous, even if he is anonymous, just knowing it’s there would freak him, and having him find it, even years later, would also likely hurt the guy unnecessarily. If this turns out to be anything other than something you guys chuckle over, this thread needs to disappear. For his sake.
Dean,
I have not made up my mind yet.
My latest scheme is to act like I am completely wasted tonight, and ask her to show me her boobies!
deliladarling, my understanding from this is that it is amateur porn uploaded to a youtube-like site, not professional.
Phelps, you are correct.
jaymaster, good luck with whatever course of action you take. However, I have to agree with Dean here. He’s right when he says that you gotta speak with him in private. I think straightforward honesty is the best way to go.
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